[Lazukko]

Ok so what makes Final Fantasy VII one of the best games ever? There are plenty of better RPGs as far as game mechanics go.. Never saw the appel of it's silly and convoluted plot either. Just like every game in the Final Fantasy series it was a very average playing RPG with high production values.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

who the hell still plays the original Doom?

Me, more than I'd feel comfortable to admit

Actually, I mostly play Doom 2. I still find it more fun than 80% FPS games on the market today and MDK is still the best action game I've ever played. Well, not everyone would agree, of course, but great classics are still fun to play, if you can look past their less than stellar presentation (by today's standards). I replay Shining Force 2 every now and then, and I don't consider myself a retro gamer, it's just that it's so good. Games have come a long way, but more doesn't always equal better and better doesn't always equal more fun (er, now this sounds a bit dumb ). Good game designs age just as well as movies do, there is certain elegance in them that doesn't deteriorate with time.

That said, lists like this one are still worthless. Any "best of" (or "worst of" or whatever) list is.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Lazukko

Ok so what makes Final Fantasy VII one of the best games ever? There are plenty of better RPGs as far as game mechanics go.. Never saw the appel of it's silly and convoluted plot either. Just like every game in the Final Fantasy series it was a very average playing RPG with high production values.

I feel like I've had this discussion already...

mag

[sethsez]

You have. And I still think that FFVII doesn't belong anywhere near a 100 best games of all time list. 100 most important games, yes, but that's different.

Tetris earned its spot at the top. It's a game that absolutely ANYBODY can play, gamer or not, and love. It's simple enough to be grasped in under a minute, but addictive enough that people are still playing it in various incarnations. It's one of the few videogames that I'd argue could be timeless.

And Doom is still fun, but that depends on what you play FPS for.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Actually, I mostly play Doom 2. I still find it more fun than 80% FPS games on the market today and MDK is still the best action game I've ever played.

MDK!!! No I could still play that easily. VERY cool , fun game.

Originally Posted by mag

Okay, first person shooters I can see. I guess they don't age as well because they're a lot more dependent on the technology. It's a much more visceral experience than a lot of other genres. But I think most other games age a lot better...even side scrolling shooters.

And I've also seen a lot of older movies that haven't aged too well, by the way. There's a lot more crap than cream in any medium.

Agreed on both counts. In fact, I wrote a thing about FPS games once where I said something like, "FPS games rely on atmosphere for immersion even more than most RPGs or adventure games, that's why graphics are unfortunately more important in FPS than most genres." Also, it's mostly the regular Nintendo, Master System, or Atari games that are hard to play now as far as 2D goes, and there are plenty of Playstation, Saturn, and N64 games these days that are hard to go back to (others, not so much...depending on the style).

The Final Fantasy games aren't hard to go back to because from 4 up to 9 they were either quality 2D, or pre-rendered backgrounds (which don't age as much visually) with 3D characters. I think SNES sort of perfected 2D gaming in some ways, that's why I can still enjoy classics like Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (as you said, side scrollers). This generation has certainly improved 3D gaming from its ugly first few years. Granted, graphics aren't everything, but I would argue that even the mechanics have improved over the years by a long shot.

As for movies, the "more crap than cream" comment is true, of course. At the same time I wonder what kind of aging you are referring to? If you mean hair styles, clothing styles, or maybe comments that seem too conservative or laughable by today's standards...then yes you will see that, particularly in older Hollywood films (as opposed to older foreign films, like Godard's Breathless, where the French seem to be as open about sex in 1960 as we are today...). But in say, Hitchcock's Rear Window, the scene where the guy sees Grace Kelly's purse in Jimmy Stewart's apartment and asks him, "Do you tell your landlord everything?" to imply that he's sleeping with Grace Kelly in his own apartment as if it's some sort of crime...that doesn't bother me. It places the picture in a certain time period, sure, but I love history and seeing how thing's were in various decades, so that's no issue. With games the presentation and gameplay have just changed so dramatically over the years...

Originally Posted by Phantom

About games aging not as good as movies: I have to agree to a certain extent. The problem is that in movies, there were only a couple of really big transitions over the last years that could really create the feeling that old movies were inferior (for example black&white -> color), while there have many "revolutions" like that over the last 10 years on computer gaming.

True. Plus, even today films are made in black and white (or even silent, but that's more rare) for stylistic reasons. There are things that black and white can do much better than color, and vice versa. Choosing one or the other can be a valid stylistic decision. But how many games do we see these days made brand new with Sega Master System graphics unless it's a budget issue? Never. It's not a valid style anymore. It is dated.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

MDK!!! No I could still play that easily. VERY cool , fun game.

I'm so sad Planet Moon Studios chose to concentrate on PSP for the moment. But that's okay, as soon as PSP gets beaten to the ground by a console whose games are technologically (but just technologically) inferior in every way, they'll get back

Agreed on both counts. In fact, I wrote a thing about FPS games once where I said something like, "FPS games rely on atmosphere for immersion even more than most RPGs or adventure games, that's why graphics are unfortunately more important in FPS than most genres."

But aren't you forgetting that once we thought those graphics was as good as it gets and we were immersed to the bone. Has human species evolved so much over the coure of few years that Doom's graphics just isn't immersive anymore? No, people are spoiled by today's visually exstravagant games (and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be), but the fact is people could enjoy those today just as much as they did then.

Granted, graphics aren't everything, but I would argue that even the mechanics have improved over the years by a long shot.

Oh they have, immensely, but not all designs profit from such advencements. Let's take Tetris for example, you can't improve its design by much, if at all. Yes, you could add Havok physics to the mix and that would possibly lead to some interesting new gameplay twists, but I doubt it could result in a game more fun than plain old Tetris (which is, by the way, considered the best designed video game in history by many).

As for movies, the "more crap than cream" comment is true, of course. At the same time I wonder what kind of aging you are referring to?...With games the presentation and gameplay have just changed so dramatically over the years...

Filming technicques are also constantly changing, although it's not as obvious as it is with games. New technologies open up a host of new possibilities. For instance, which old movie can be compared to Lola Rennt or Fight Club or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind from the perspective of visuals, editing etc?

But how many games do we see these days made brand new with Sega Master System graphics unless it's a budget issue? Never. It's not a valid style anymore. It is dated.

Yet games with such and even worse graphics are still being made and they sell like crazy. I'm talking about mobile phones. Sure, once their graphics capabilities move beyond that, so will games, but it's worth noting that many people today play those silly little games and they're obviously finding them a lot of fun.

[mag]

Originally Posted by sethsez

And I still think that FFVII doesn't belong anywhere near a 100 best games of all time list. 100 most important games, yes, but that's different.

Well, you're wrong...again.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

As for movies, the "more crap than cream" comment is true, of course. At the same time I wonder what kind of aging you are referring to?

I often find myself being disappointed when I watch older movies. Certainly not always, but often enough. A good example of one I saw recently is Mister Smith Goes to Washington. A few weeks ago I finally tracked down a copy and watched it for the first time. Now, maybe that's an example of a film you consider too "Hollywoodized," but I had heard a lot about how this is one of the greatest political dramas ever made. So I was pretty excited. Boy, is that movie overrated! I can only think of one word to describe the directing in that film: cheese.

In general, though, I think you have a good point. Films do usually age better than video games, probably because, as Phantom said, games have undergone a lot more major technological changes. But even so, I've seen quite a few films from around 1930-1940 wherein the director made choices that probably looked good at the time but that look really cheesy today.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

But how many games do we see these days made brand new with Sega Master System graphics unless it's a budget issue? Never. It's not a valid style anymore. It is dated.

Well, almost never.



Seriously though, there's always the possibility that it could emerge as a valid style. I don't think it's likely, but consider. When designers were first using those pixelated graphics in the 1980s, it was because they didn't have anything else to work with. Now though, we have people using pixel art because they actually like the style. It's "retro." And you know how much publishers love to sell stuff that's retro.

mag

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

But aren't you forgetting that once we thought those graphics was as good as it gets and we were immersed to the bone. Has human species evolved so much over the coure of few years that Doom's graphics just isn't immersive anymore? No, people are spoiled by today's visually exstravagant games (and I'm not saying that they shouldn't be), but the fact is people could enjoy those today just as much as they did then.

Only if they didn't know any better. I mean, there was a time when a little black and white TV set with 5 channels was considered a breakthrough, but now people want 16 : 9 aspect ratios on big screens with HDTV resolutions. Heh. I agree about Tetris though, I've just played the game so much I can't get into it anymore.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Filming technicques are also constantly changing, although it's not as obvious as it is with games. New technologies open up a host of new possibilities. For instance, which old movie can be compared to Lola Rennt or Fight Club or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind from the perspective of visuals, editing etc?

You mean the current fascination with "flashy" music video visuals being merged with mainstream film? David Fincher (director of Fight Club) got his start in music videos, and that's no coincidence. That's not so much a new technology as it is a current fad. If you want to see where all that started, view Stan Brakhage's experimental films of the 1950's, or especially his film Dog Star Man from 1962. He was the first to use many of the effects we now associate with this very "modern" style of visuals and editing..including the use of, according to Brakhage, "interruptive flash frame as a psychological effect."

Ingmar Bergman also did a lot of that style of editing in his film Persona in 1966. This is nothing new, it's just used way too much today. Nor is there anything new about jump cuts, which were used to great effect in Eternal Sunshine. I'm not saying Eternal Sunshine wasn't a great movie, I happened to love it and it made my Top 10 for 2004, but there wasn't anything particularly new about its style.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by mag

I often find myself being disappointed when I watch older movies. Certainly not always, but often enough. A good example of one I saw recently is Mister Smith Goes to Washington. A few weeks ago I finally tracked down a copy and watched it for the first time. Now, maybe that's an example of a film you consider too "Hollywoodized," but I had heard a lot about how this is one of the greatest political dramas ever made. So I was pretty excited. Boy, is that movie overrated! I can only think of one word to describe the directing in that film: cheese.

LOL! Look up Frank Capra. That's the guy who made Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. The guy generally grows on people over time (he made It's A Wonderful Life which is a rather well known classic), but yeah man...you're right. People even use the term "Capra-esque" to describe really idyllic, sugar coated stuff. Now, I like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, but that's mainly because that kind of optimism and innocence is rarely seen in movies today. Sure it's a bit cheesy (gotta love those sudden soft focus close-ups of people grinning like the world is a big party, lol), but there is good to be found in that picture. So anyway, I can't say your observations were wrong, but Capra has his charms.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

who the hell still plays the original Doom? Who still plays Goldeneye 007? Who still plays the original Tetris

Me.

[[toj.cc]Phantom]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

Me.

I play those games also!

[Once A Villain]

Bah! Look, don't get me wrong, I can still play those games and, in a sense, enjoy them. I just don't fool myself into believing that Pong is as immersive and effective as Deus Ex or Half-Life 2.

I still think that Goldeneye has held up very well.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by SamNMax

I still think that Goldeneye has held up very well.

Actually yeah, that one isn't bad. Since I own the game anyway, I've recently been playing it in higher resolution on an emulator, it's still a fun game. So is Jedi Knight.

[Hamham Chan]

Sonic the Hedgehog II Platform: Sega, 1992
Debut system: Megadrive Hedgehogs once emerged at night to nibble breadcrumbs and drink saucers of milk... or become road kill. Sonic made the humblest of creatures a superhero! This sequel really razzle dazzled.

You shouldn´t give milk to hedhehogs, it´s not good for their digestion.

Tetris Platform: Nintendo, 1989
Debut system: Game Boy The history of Tetris reads like a study on Cold War politics, thankfully the game itself is nowhere near as boring. On the contrary, it’s arguably THE greatest game ever.

Gameboy wasn´t the debut system for Tetris.
It was released on various computers, Commodore 64 among others, in 1988.

Oh, i´m such a know it all.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

Yes, you could add Havok physics to the mix and that would possibly lead to some interesting new gameplay twists, but I doubt it could result in a game more fun than plain old Tetris (which is, by the way, considered the best designed video game in history by many).

I really can't agree with that. Of course Tetris is a major achievement, but is it the best video game ever? Is chess the best board game ever? It's varied, easy to learn, almost perfectly balanced (only imbalance being who plays first) and has unlimited depth, but is it also the most fun? I don't know. I don't think so. And I'm sure if you ask 1000 random people which game they had the most fun with, not many will say Tetris.

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

I just don't fool myself into believing that Pong is as immersive and effective as Deus Ex or Half-Life 2.

What about Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2?

You mean the current fascination with "flashy" music video visuals being merged with mainstream film? David Fincher (director of Fight Club) got his start in music videos, and that's no coincidence. That's not so much a new technology as it is a current fad. If you want to see where all that started, view Stan Brakhage's experimental films of the 1950's, or especially his film Dog Star Man from 1962. He was the first to use many of the effects we now associate with this very "modern" style of visuals and editing..including the use of, according to Brakhage, "interruptive flash frame as a psychological effect."

I must admit I never heard of Brakhage and I always wondered where the title of Suede's Dog Man Star came from
Still, that's not quite what I meant (CGI and a lot of camerawork it made possible just wasn't there back in the old days), but never mind, it was a bad comparisson anyway.

The bottom line is, though new technologies provide the possibilities for new games to be better than the ones that came before them, it isn't always the case (another quick example: Driver Vs. Driv3r). There are some pretty old games that are still just as good as the ones being released today.

People mostly play newer games cause they're always hungry for more, they want to see what happens next and where it can all take us (I'm also one of them, by the way, very much so), but if we could somehow stop their production and say "Okay, this is it, go play your favorites now cause there'll be no more new games ever" (what a scary thought!), I bet not many of us would go and play the latest titles released.

I mean, isn't it funny that we're having this conversation on a forum dedicated to adventure games?

There's a nice article that touches on some of these questions in the latest issue of The Escapist magazine.

And Phantom, I don't think Tetris is the best game ever either. Still, it is one of the simplest yet most effective game designs to date.

[Once A Villain]

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

What about Deus Ex and Deus Ex 2?

I don't like 2 as much as 1. Deus Ex and HL2 though are, in my view, Top 5 first person action game material.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

I must admit I never heard of Brakhage and I always wondered where the title of Suede's Dog Man Star came from
Still, that's not quite what I meant (CGI and a lot of camerawork it made possible just wasn't there back in the old days), but never mind, it was a bad comparisson anyway.

You'd be really surprised to know how much stuff in Eternal Sunshine, effects-wise, was done in camera or using other cool tricks. CGI was only used as a last resort, that's why the movie didn't plummet into Episode 1 or 2 territory.

Originally Posted by insane_cobra

There are some pretty old games that are still just as good as the ones being released today.

I agree, I just mean most aren't.

I never thought I'd find myself saying this, but I think IGN's list was better. It certainly covered more ground, as this is mostly a list of console games with the occasional mmorpg and arcade game thrown in. I'm also not thrilled by the total omission of traditional single player crpgs (KOTOR originated on the consoles). Leaving out the legendary Ultima series is inexcusable.

[Filmman]

Originally Posted by Hammerite

Tetris is fun but... greatest game of all time?

Tetris is a classic game I like playing Tetris alot