[ConcreteRancor]

Originally Posted by SoccerDude28

Dungeon Keeper: The only game that's close to it is Evil Genius which is a rip off of DK's gameplay

But which rocks the secret volcano lair anyway. I need to get my hands on a copy of DK2 so I can do more fun evil stuff.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by mag

Now Hideo Kojima is a genius. But he's really the only game designer I can think of who falls into that category.
mag

Yet you wouldn't agree that Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius? He took Mario from the arcade Donkey Kong, and created the entire Mario series, and brought it to consoles? Then he created Zelda. Without Shigeru Miyamoto there wouldn't even BE consoles to play Metal Gear Solid on!

You wouldn't consider Will Wright a genius for creating The Sims, a whole new genre of gaming, and the world's best seller? From the original Sim City to the latest Sims 2, he has a list of about 12 hits.

Seems to me that you need to do a bit of research in game development, Mag.

As far as Tim Schafer - he took a Mexican theme of Day of the Dead, added cartoon characters and made a Romantic Comedy out of it - and you don't think THAT's genius? How many others have used that much originality?

[BoyToy]

Originally Posted by EasilyConfused

But the suggestion that all you have to do to be a genius is come up with a brilliant idea can't be right. We have an artist friend of the family [...] He says ideas are a dime a dozen, it's getting the work made (and SEEN) that is the hard part.

What you are talking about is being an artist, not being a genius. Those are two different things!
Maybe being a genius is even a precondition to being a real artist. But that doesn't make the reverse true.
You don't have to be an artist to be a genius!

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

What you are talking about is being an artist, not being a genius. Those are two different things!
Maybe being a genius is even a precondition to being a real artist. But that doesn't make the reverse true.
You don't have to be an artist to be a genius!

BoyToy, we are talking about game design. Game designs results in a tangible output, a game. It's not enough for one to develop a briliant idea for a game to be a genius. Personally, for me to consider anyone a genius game designer, he/she has to be able to deliver on both idea development as well as execution of that idea. I think that was the point EC was also making in her example.

[Fairygdmther]

But an artist doesn't have to make his own canvasses, mix his own pigments, make his own frames, etc. to be an artist. A game developer needs to create the idea, then direct the design and programming of it, and communicate the vision to the writers, artists, and musicians. The idea followed by the overseeing until fruition constitutes the creative endeavor. Ideas, as they say, are a dime a dozen. Since game development is primarily a team effort, communication is part of the process.

FGM

[Eye-Z]

mag has bad opinions, please ban him from the site.

[BoyToy]

Yeah, Gilly. I was simply referring to Trep's more general question "what IS a genius?".
Granted, my opinion on that matter provides a very abstract attempt of an answer.

I think I understand what you mean, though. And I agree, someone who has just an idea for a game, which never gets communicated {(c)FGM} and never gets near realisation, can't be regarded a game developer (let alone a brilliant one).

What you're referring to as a "game design genuis", is someone I'd probably call "brilliant game developer".

Anyway, I think there were too many people involved in the creation of games like DOTT and MI, to safely identify one individual as a genius - even if you regard the whole products as ingenius games. But I don't know much about the internal creativity processes that lead to the finished games, so I'm not exactly the best one to judge that.

There's good indication Tim Schafer is a brilliant mind when it comes to game design. But genius is not the word I would use to describe it.

Originally Posted by FGM

Ideas, as they say, are a dime a dozen.

Certainly. But you might remember I was speaking of ideas nobody else could have had.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by BoyToy

Ideas nobody else could have had.

That is rather vague. Are you sure that's possible?

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

That is rather vague. Are you sure that's possible?

Sure it's possible but there would really be no way to verify it.

[EasilyConfused]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

That is rather vague. Are you sure that's possible?

I'm not sure it is entirely possible. I mean, I've never heard of an example outside of (possibly?) some really high forms of math and physics. You can have an idea FIRST. But look at the theory of evolution for example--two people came up with it at virtually the same time, and history credits Darwin with the idea because the other guy (anyone know his name? Anyone?) never got attention for it. Plus there were plenty of people leading up to Darwin.

As far as artists go--and I would consider Schafer (and I actually do know who he is) to be involved in something artistic--I don't think they do anything in isolation either. That was what remixor's point about Mozart was. I just don't find the term genius very helpful. To me, the better question is whether Schafer's good or not? Does he contribute or not? Are his contributions worthwhile or useless--or actually detrimental--to a game? Are they intriguing, interesting, original, inspiring, neat, fun, creative, worthy of attention? Yeah, definitely. Genius? The term doesn't really help me think about him or anyone else in a creative field, unless I'm going to use it in some gushy "I LOooooooooove his work, he's a genius!" kind of way.

As for whether he's better than other designers mentioned in the thread, I think that's a matter of taste and a question of what elements of a game you find most appealing or important. It'd be like arguing about whether one musician or another is better (didn't y'all HAVE this argument in some horrendous chitchat thread at some point?)

[Jackal]

A man is not defined by his works, anyway. Really we can only discuss whether his games show signs of genius. Semantics, maybe, but I'm not seeing the distinction here (at least consistently).

Anyway, I agree that the word is bandied about far too casually, and I would never lightly ascribe it to anyone.

To me the more important question is whether a person is unique. And I don't mean in the "every snowflake is unique" way, either. I'm talking about giving me 100 new games with no foreknowledge, and still being able to pick out the Schafer game because his character is so infused in the design that it's impossible to miss. To that question I'd say that Schafer is head and shoulders above many (most/all) other designers.

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by Kingzjester

Mag is a Jane Joeunsen fan. His opinion is not worth spit.

Thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten... Seriously, Day of the Tentacle BAD?!

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by Jackal

A man is not defined by his works, anyway. Really we can only discuss whether his games show signs of genius. Semantics, maybe, but I'm not seeing the distinction here (at least consistently).

Anyway, I agree that the word is bandied about far too casually, and I would never lightly ascribe it to anyone.

To me the more important question is whether a person is unique. And I don't mean in the "every snowflake is unique" way, either. I'm talking about giving me 100 new games with no foreknowledge, and still being able to pick out the Schafer game because his character is so infused in the design that it's impossible to miss. To that question I'd say that Schafer is head and shoulders above many (most/all) other designers.

Regardless of genius or not, what I like about Schafer or Molyneux for that matter, is that they don't take the easy way out. A lot of developers start taking the same route over and over again, with improvements but with no substantial design change. It's easy to go with a sequel. When Schafer was asked in the last interview if he's gonna create a sequel, he said that he usually doesn't like sequels. Because if he created a sequel for DOTT there wouldn't have been full throttle, and if there was a sequel for FT, there wouldn't have been Grim and then same for Psychonauts. Even his approach to Psychonauts is unique. Every level has art drawn from scratch. He doesn't reuse any art from previous levels (POP anybody???). That dedication to pour his heart into something to create something so unique is what in my book makes him stand out. Same with Molyneux. Look at his career, barely any sequels. Always innovates, and although he sometimes flops, that's coz he is stretching himself to the limit, and treading places no one else dares approach. That passion for what you do deserves a lot of respect. Regardless if they are all geniuses or not, they are all brilliant at what they do.

[gillyruless]

Originally Posted by deadworm222

Thanks for reminding me, I had forgotten... Seriously, Day of the Tentacle BAD?!

If you get its wackiness and off-the-wall humor, and many did, Day of the Tentacle is a great game. If you don't get it, then the game actually is quite terrible. I got some of the humor but not all of it so to me, it's a so-so game. It didn't help that I played it right around the time I played GK 1 for the first time. DOTT compared rather poorly to GK1 to me. They are such different games and since I loved GK1 so much, I was biased against DOTT somewhat. I guess I'm a gaming bigot.

By the way, now, we need to have a Jansenite start a "Is Jane Jansen a genius?" thread to restore the spiritual balance to the universe. If we don't, the yin and yang forces will be out of alignment and terrible things will start happening. The first sign of the coming doom would the revival of the Holy War thread.

[SoccerDude28]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

If you get its wackiness and off-the-wall humor, and many did, Day of the Tentacle is a great game. If you don't get it, then the game actually is quite terrible. I got some of the humor but not all of it so to me, it's a so-so game. It didn't help that I played it right around the time I played GK 1 for the first time. DOTT compared rather poorly to GK1 to me. They are such different games and since I loved GK1 so much, I was biased against DOTT somewhat. I guess I'm a gaming bigot.

By the way, now, we need to have a Jansenite start a "Is Jane Jansen a genius?" thread to restore the spiritual balance to the universe. If we don't, the yin and yang forces will be out of alignment and terrible things will start happening. The first sign of the coming doom would the revival of the Holy War thread.

*Gathers a mob of angry Age'ers with lights and torches, outside Gilly's doorstep. * Heathen.... Blasphemy...

EDIT: Did I forget to say

[Wormsie]

Originally Posted by gillyruless

If you get its wackiness and off-the-wall humor, and many did, Day of the Tentacle is a great game. If you don't get it, then the game actually is quite terrible. I got some of the humor but not all of it so to me, it's a so-so game. It didn't help that I played it right around the time I played GK 1 for the first time. DOTT compared rather poorly to GK1 to me. They are such different games and since I loved GK1 so much, I was biased against DOTT somewhat. I guess I'm a gaming bigot.

If you love crappy Penguin Books paperback fiction, you'll love Gabriel Knight 1.

BeTrapped! is definitely fantastic.

[squarejawhero]

He's a great art director, but he isn't a genius.

I'd like to see his talent applied to something outside of gaming - that is, his visual storytelling skills are stronger than the gameplay of much of his stuff. Psychonauts looks like being extremely interesting, but it takes many motifs from Henry Selik's work. My only concern is the visual style is a little messy, some of the colours don't really work well together - some of it could be described as Muddy.

That said, this is a fine piece of marketing.

http://timisgod.mixnmojo.com/

[remixor]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

but it takes many motifs from Henry Selik's work.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

(Also, Tim isn't really an art director. I mean I'm sure he has excellent communication WITH his art director but I suspect he is more responsible for the mood and concept and so forth than the actual specific look, which might end up being what he had in his mind but which is contingent on his art director and concept artists.)

[squarejawhero]

Coming from animation, I'd like to know more about his role in the game, as it's very high on the same values I see in... uh... animation. Which is a Very Good Thing. It just falls flat on a few areas.

BTW I don't see it being "inspired by" Selik as a bad thing - a Selik-based game designed by Selik would be amazing - but it isn't original. On a purely design level Grim Fandango is vastly superior as it doesn't just bow down to style, it lifts its motifs from a specific source. Sure, it's more than a little Tiki-art, but it's vision is truly unique, not just in terms of concept but also presentation.

I'm loving the animation from Psychonauts but it unfortunately reminds me of Selik's worst - Monkeybone. Although its got flair the fact that they've been grasping a lot of different elements means it doesn't work as well or as strongly as it could.

I'm still looking forward to it. It's rare to have a game which places value on things that I hold dear in my own work.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

Yet you wouldn't agree that Shigeru Miyamoto is a genius? He took Mario from the arcade Donkey Kong, and created the entire Mario series, and brought it to consoles? Then he created Zelda. Without Shigeru Miyamoto there wouldn't even BE consoles to play Metal Gear Solid on!

You wouldn't consider Will Wright a genius for creating The Sims, a whole new genre of gaming, and the world's best seller? From the original Sim City to the latest Sims 2, he has a list of about 12 hits.

Seems to me that you need to do a bit of research in game development, Mag.

As far as Tim Schafer - he took a Mexican theme of Day of the Dead, added cartoon characters and made a Romantic Comedy out of it - and you don't think THAT's genius? How many others have used that much originality?

First of all, what you're talking about with regard to Miyamoto is a matter of good marketing skills, not game design.

And yes, I'm quite familiar with both Miyamoto and Wright. And there's no question that they're both excellent game designers. But I'm not sure I would even consider them geniuses either. Of course, these ones are more debatable, but I'm pretty sure I'd just leave it at "brilliant," not "genius."

The thing with both Miyamoto and Wright is that their games are really just toys. They're very well made and very fun to play, but there's not much more to them than that. Their games are really the most basic thing you can do with the technology. The reason I say that Hideo Kojima is a genius, rather than any other game designer, is because his games really push the boundaries of what can be done with video games. They're not just toys like Miyamoto's and Wright's games, nor are they merely attempts to mimic other media like so many other games today. Kojima is by far the best at making games that actually take advantage of the strengths of the medium.

Originally Posted by Eye-Z

mag has bad opinions, please ban him from the site.

I know, I know. I shouldn't dare to point out Schafer's flaws here on LucasArts Gamers. Allow me to apologize for subjecting the Schafer fanboys here to a different opinion.

mag