[Kivie]

I have been thinking about putting together a compilation of clips from video games for the purpose of showing people - if you like - the 'finer' side of gaming, and I'd like to hear your opinions on what it would include. The video would aim to convince people out of the mindset that games are pointless button-bashing exercises and would appeal to the idea that art and culture, imbued in a storytelling medium in the same way they are in books and films, are relevant to computer games. And I would want the video to show people exactly what playing a game is like when the game is not a stereotypical button-bashing exercise.

I have envisaged that the movie would go through a number of specific aspects of - for want of a better term - the 'good' games. Currently I'm thinking:
1. Adventure
2. Story
3. Exploration
4. Puzzles
5. Tackling of issues (e.g. moral, philosophical or sociological questions or problems raised)
6. Characters
7. Acting
8. Emotion
9. Humour
10. Music

It would start by displaying a title with the name of the aspect, and would then present in-game clips to demonstrate the aspect.

So the questions are:
-Is this a good list of "aspects of a game that should be valued and/or recognised"? I was also thinking of having sound effects, graphics or technology, or presentation of magic or the fantastical.

-What order should the aspects appear in?

-And what moments have you experienced in a computer game that have really shown you the best of these aspects? (Of course, this could take ages to pin down, and you might think having multiple polls would be a good idea, but I'll start with this general topic first.)

I'm interested to hear your opinions. Of course, if a video like this already exists, please tell me about it! (And by the way, this project would only be an 'amateur' creation.) Thank you!

[MoriartyL]

I don't think music should be there. You can't convince anyone of the value of games by saying "But listen to this great background music!".

Good luck finding acting, emotion and good characters- I don't think I've ever seen those! Real-world significance is also pretty rare.

[Fop]

I don't think you can show the finer side of gaming with a video montage. It'll just look like poor animation.

[Terramax]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

I don't think music should be there. You can't convince anyone of the value of games by saying "But listen to this great background music!".

I'd suggest you put on Myst III: Exile and turn the music up LOUD! Or Shadow of the Colossus in its epic battles. Although, that game is pretty violent so maybe not for the finer side.

When you say 'finer', do you mean less violent? Neutral? Relaxing?

Sorry if this is a stupid question.

[TiAgUh]

Originally Posted by Terramax

Or Shadow of the Colossus in its epic battles.

Or everything in ICO.

[samIamsad]

I wish this was available with subtitles or something, but this brought a little tear to my eye. Wait, apparently some German guy put up a translation.. sounds about alright, except for some of the language. Grumble.

[Kivie]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

I don't think music should be there. You can't convince anyone of the value of games by saying "But listen to this great background music!".

You couldn't convince people just by reference to the background music, but if in combination with the other aspects, you could.

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Good luck finding acting, emotion and good characters- I don't think I've ever seen those! Real-world significance is also pretty rare.

Well obviously it's all subjective anyway, isn't it? One person's idea of a good character or a well-acted character will differ from someone else's. I personally feel that the voice acting of, for example, April Ryan and George Stobbart in their respective games were excellent. Professional actors are often employed to play video game roles, too. And I've read many reports of people getting tearful when playing parts of some games (e.g. Dreamfall, and the beginning of Myst V). And I have found real-world significance too - in, for example, Dreamfall. But I know there are others - I'm just saying Dreamfall because it's my favourite.


As for 'finer': no, it's not a stupid question. It has no set definition. That is, in fact, one of my questions: how should 'finer' be defined? I defined it, effectively, with reference to those 10 aspects. Again, you need to have an effective combination of more than one of those things in order to make a compelling overall experience. Many games have great music, but the other aspects may be lacking. However, good stories, good acting and good characters tend to feed on each other.

I would say, a game doesn't have to be non-violent to be 'respectable'. But to shed gaming's stigma, it would certainly be a good idea to show that violence is not a necessary requirement of a good game, nor a property of all games.

Is anyone getting this?

Let me put it another way. Suppose you're talking to someone and they say that playing computer games is a waste of time and that you should do something more useful (that is, more socially respectable, by their standards) like reading a book. This is not an uncommon attitude. The question is, how might you go about convincing them that some games ought to meet their criteria for socially respectable activities? (Answer: this video, hopefully.)

[TiAgUh]

Originally Posted by samIamsad

Wait, apparently some German guy put up a translation.. sounds about alright, except for some of the language. Grumble.

well ..dude loves to say f*ck.

Here's the short version of that.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Kivie

Let me put it another way. Suppose you're talking to someone and they say that playing computer games is a waste of time and that you should do something more useful (that is, more socially respectable, by their standards) like reading a book.

Well, personally, I'd argue that most books are complete, utter trash and are therefore no more of a waste of time than games are. But if you want to go about it the hard way, then by all means, be my guest.

[Kivie]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Well, personally, I'd argue that most books are complete, utter trash and are therefore no more of a waste of time than games are. But if you want to go about it the hard way, then by all means, be my guest.

That's certainly an alternative approach.

You could say, "it depends on the book; likewise, it depends on the game; and furthermore, it depends on the tastes of the reader and the player, respectively". But your version appeals more to the masses.


Yes, and I've heard good things about Ico, so if I did some more research and found some good clips, I could include it. But I haven't played it because I don't have a PS2.

And Fop, I'm not sure what you mean. What I envisage is something like this:
-Title, "Story", appears on screen.
-Clip from a game, showing exactly what you would see if you were playing the game, including the audio. Possibly a title appears at the bottom (technically known as a lower third) to tell you which game it is.
-Some other clips in the same format.
-Next title appears, and so on.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Kivie

Let me put it another way. Suppose you're talking to someone and they say that playing computer games is a waste of time and that you should do something more useful (that is, more socially respectable, by their standards) like reading a book. This is not an uncommon attitude. The question is, how might you go about convincing them that some games ought to meet their criteria for socially respectable activities? (Answer: this video, hopefully.)

There's only two ways they might be convinced: If their friends play and enjoy videogames, or if they play and enjoy videogames. Watching a video, made by someone who is not them or their friends, will just make them aware of how desparate we gamers are.

Now, if it were my idea to make a video like that, I know I wouldn't give up until I'd made it and showed people and seen first-hand how disinterested they were. I'm desparate like that. So I wish you the best of luck.

[Terramax]

Or everything in ICO.

I was refering to the music in Colosseus with that post.

Originally Posted by Kivie

And Fop, I'm not sure what you mean. What I envisage is something like this:
-Title, "Story", appears on screen.
-Clip from a game, showing exactly what you would see if you were playing the game, including the audio. Possibly a title appears at the bottom (technically known as a lower third) to tell you which game it is.
-Some other clips in the same format.
-Next title appears, and so on.

If you want something to explicitely show story, you'll probably need to show an interesting cutscene of someone literally talking about a major plot element of a scene.

I think a cutscene from one of the Myst games, with Atrus talking to you about his troubled past, etc, would do great. Especially as Atrus would be directly facing the audience, and excellent way of showing games breaking the fourth wall.

Ico/ Colossus and Shenmue would be great for exploration.

Issues I would say the Silent Hill 2 for the right and wrong of murder, SH3 for the obsession with religion. And if you intergrate elements of 'the making of Silent Hill 3' witha montage of them using real actors for the framework and voices of the computerized actors in the final version, there's a prime example for acting also.

For humour, probably something more innocent like Monkey Island or Broken Sword 1.

I think 'art' should be another element to a game, in terms of style. The various styles of games would be great, a montage of the more 'realistic' settings to the 'cartoony' or 'surreal'. There are only too many games to mention.

'Evolution' could be another topic. Pictures of old games and showing the physical/ visual evolution.

[Kivie]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

There's only two ways they might be convinced: If their friends play and enjoy videogames, or if they play and enjoy videogames. Watching a video, made by someone who is not them or their friends, will just make them aware of how desparate we gamers are.

Now, if it were my idea to make a video like that, I know I wouldn't give up until I'd made it and showed people and seen first-hand how disinterested they were. I'm desparate like that. So I wish you the best of luck.

Well, in fact, I can't imagine ever specifically showing someone the video to try and convince them, so I suppose I'd never get to know first-hand if it actually fulfils that goal. Even if it doesn't succeed in doing that, however, it does also make a statement about what things people tend to value in a game, and even if it doesn't do that, it could make gamers feel better about what they've played, and be a kind of nostalgic experience.

(And you say they might be convinced if their friends play and enjoy games. Then what if you are one of their friends?)

Let me put it in the form of this conversation:
A: Computer games are vile time-wasters. They are nothing more than button-bashing exercises for people with low attention spans.
B: The ones I play are nothing of the sort.
A: Well, what sort of games do you play then?
B: My favourites are the adventure games.
A: ?!
B: Well, the sorts of games where you explore, solve taxing problems and uncover a story. Where you can appreciate the graphics, the music and the dialogue as art, or at least, as a form of creative expression.
A: ?!
B: Watch this video and you might get it.

At this point, they might just say something like "watching videos is a waste of time; why can't you just write a 15000 word dissertation on the subject like any respectable person?" Or they might, when they have a spare moment, take a look. Depending on the person, they might be open-minded enough to change what they think. (I have changed what I think many times based on things that I've read, seen and heard.)


Thanks Terramax for your thoughts. That should be useful. I was indeed thinking of having an 'art' category which could show particularly original or creative locations in games - and there are plenty of them of course. Your point about style is a good one though. It is interesting to note that every game does seem to have a unique, consistent style, and that in some cases, this style fits in with the story and game world itself. In Day of the Tentacle, for example, all the locations are somehow warped at the sides, which fits in with the zany atmosphere and crazy story.

[TiAgUh]

Originally Posted by Kivie

1. Adventure
2. Story
3. Exploration
4. Puzzles
5. Tackling of issues (e.g. moral, philosophical or sociological questions or problems raised)
6. Characters
7. Acting
8. Emotion
9. Humour
10. Music

Thinking of Metal Gear..
you could do like this (music\footage from MetalGear Portable OPS) but with footage of the Digital Graphic Novels interactive comics for PSP covering MSG storylines) or something like that.

EDIT: From the 1st game and Portable OPS at least because the Graphic Novel from the 2nd and 3rd game are not out yet..

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Kivie

Let me put it in the form of this conversation:
A: Computer games are vile time-wasters. They are nothing more than button-bashing exercises for people with low attention spans.
B: The ones I play are nothing of the sort.
A: Well, what sort of games do you play then?
B: My favourites are the adventure games.
A: ?!
B: Well, the sorts of games where you explore, solve taxing problems and uncover a story. Where you can appreciate the graphics, the music and the dialogue as art, or at least, as a form of creative expression.
A: ?!
B: Watch this video and you might get it.

And what, pray tell, is stopping you from demonstrating an actual game or two, instead? Do we really have so much of an inferiority complex that we must make use of "better" mediums, such as film, to prove our points? What's next, judging the quality of games based on how much they resemble movies?

...oh, wait. Never mind.

[stepurhan]

Isn't it more a case of using a medium that someone is already comfortable with rather than one that is "better"? It's easier to persuade people when you start from within their comfort zone.

[Fop]

Games are about interaction. It's what makes games a new and worthwhile artform. Take interaction out and all that's left is what other media usually already do better. Show video of some 2D adventure to a non-gamer -- it's like Disney animation, only terrible with a stationary background and some characters walking around with obviously looping animations, talking with text appearing on top of their heads. Show a 3D shooter and it looks like Pixar made a snuff film. Explain the stories and they seem camp and silly.

If all I'd seen of games was a video I'd deem games unredeemable trash. You cannot understand why games are worthwhile without playing games, and you cannot play games like Bioshock without a whole lot of practice and former experience playing and understanding games.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Fop

If all I'd seen of games was a video I'd deem games unredeemable trash. You cannot understand why games are worthwhile without playing games, and you cannot play games like Bioshock without a whole lot of practice and former experience playing and understanding games.

Interesting point, which proves that what we really need are more games with intuitive interfaces that noobs can just pick up and get the hang of easily. Note that I'm not exactly talking about "casual games" here, but games that are deep and profound in their content while still being accessible in the delivery of said content.

Because, you know, it could just be that people don't want to "waste time" playing games because they don't feel masochistic enough to constantly want to get punished for their so-called failures.

[Kivie]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Interesting point, which proves that what we really need are more games with intuitive interfaces that noobs can just pick up and get the hang of easily. Note that I'm not exactly talking about "casual games" here, but games that are deep and profound in their content while still being accessible in the delivery of said content.

That might be so. 3D adventure games can easily use the same control system as first person shooters to increase their accessibility.

Because, you know, it could just be that people don't want to "waste time" playing games because they don't feel masochistic enough to constantly want to get punished for their so-called failures.

Are you referring to games that make you do something again and again until you get it right? Or difficulties with interfaces?

[Squinky]

Well, both, in a way.

Also, I don't follow how FPS interfaces are considered "intuitive". I can't make heads or tails of them, personally.