[SnorkleCat]

To me, that's a bit like asking for food to be of higher literary quality: "What I really want is a meal that could be considered edible literature."

No, I see what you mean, but a game is first and foremost something you play. While a great novel has to be brilliant in literary terms, a great game will have to be brilliant in game terms. That probably involves good writing, but by reducing games to literature we're doing the medium a disservice.

Reducing games to literature? For one thing, "literature" isn't a pejorative term. I fail to see how improving the actual quality of writing would harm the game, any more than great art work would. And about there being differing tastes in literature, I absolutely agree, but there are standards...I have hated plenty of things I've read, but had to admit that the writing was competent. One may hate Irvine Welsh's subject matter - or love it- but he at least has a style his own and a command of language -not language you'd use to your mother of course A.S. Byatt has a style different to Irvine Welsh, but again, she is in full control of her instrument. Dickens, Hemmingway, Neil Gaiman, Asterix, Agatha Christie, L. Frank Baum, The Simpsons...all very different styles and stories, but good writing is to be found with all of them. The point is, in order to be published in the first place, there is at least SOME standard that has to be achieved, and if one's writing sounds like a dull grade school composition, weak with cliches and unintentionally poor constructions, then it fails to meet the standard and there's no way it would be published. Book critics are at leisure to discuss the story, development, characterization and interpretations...they are not forced to contend with the fact that the author wrote something TERRIBLE like:

"It was dark and stormy out and thunder clouds glared loomingly on the black horizon. Jade Johnson angrily pushed her short blond hair out of her blue eyes and scowled poutingly at the horizon."

or

"The stove entrance was dark like the mouth of a wolf."

Do you know what I mean? That's just terrible writing, and I don't think any book publisher would ever accept that. What I'm saying is this. There is NO comparable industry standard in place for the writing of games, at least none that I can detect. That means, a game you buy could have fantastic writing, or it could have dreadful "dark and stormy" writing. I'm suggesting that developers pay more attention to the writing aspect of their games than they have in the past. Again, stick figure art would never be accepted (unless intentional and plot oriented) as good game graphics. I'm also not suggesting that all games have to have a LOT of writing. What there is, should be strong, whether ten lines or ten thousand.

Yes, I think most of us have had our fill of feisty young women. Although I can't help pointing out that back in the days of LucasArts, the variety was much greater.

I would like to see people of different ages and races, as well as more surreal worlds and made up creatures. I'm a bit tired of most characters fitting the same profile of young, white, and beautiful, whether male or female, though I have to say the female characters all seem to be carbon copies of one another more than the males do. (Zoe, April, Kate etc). It makes the story dull. I want to see interesting elderly characters, more cultures, and fewer stereotypes. I don't want games to suffer from the same lack of originality that Hollywood often does.

Why is a dead Mexican travel agent/casino owner/skipper/pilgrim/revolutionary constantly faced with mechanical obstacles? Why does he have to track down metal detectors and other gadgets? Even in the final confrontation with the bad guy you beat him by mucking around with machinery. It certainly isn't part of the noir atmosphere the game tries to emulate. And it doesn't really have anything to do with the story (maybe apart from the sprout gun technology, which is a plot point).

I don't agree about the puzzles not fitting with Grim Fandango's story line. The Art Deco period was all about progress and movement and machinery and they blended that well with the atonement and sojourning themes in the Dia de los Muertos side of the story. What sorts of puzzles do you feel would have been more appropriate?

[SnorkleCat]

Who is Hoagie, by the way?

[insane_cobra]

Originally Posted by SnorkleCat

Who is Hoagie, by the way?

One of three playable characters in LucasArts' Maniac Mansion: Day of the Tentacle. This dude:



Not having played DotT will NOT be tolerated, submit yourself to it now!

[SnorkleCat]

Hehe...well I did actually start on it at some point, but got sidetracked and never got far...I shall have to relocate it...

[After a brisk nap]

Originally Posted by SnorkleCat

Reducing games to literature? For one thing, "literature" isn't a pejorative term. I fail to see how improving the actual quality of writing would harm the game, any more than great art work would.

Games involve so much more than just the writing, so if you reduce them to literature you lose everything that makes them a worthwhile separate medium.

As for actually harming them, it's like the balance required of plays or movies: an actor may want to do things that would strengthen their character, but wouldn't actually improve the play or film. Each element has to serve the production as a whole.

But as I said, I mainly think it's a distraction from the things that really need improvement, such as gameplay, interface and basic technology.

And about there being differing tastes in literature, I absolutely agree, but there are standards...I have hated plenty of things I've read, but had to admit that the writing was competent. One may hate Irvine Welsh's subject matter - or love it- but he at least has a style his own and a command of language -not language you'd use to your mother of course A.S. Byatt has a style different to Irvine Welsh, but again, she is in full control of her instrument. Dickens, Hemmingway, Neil Gaiman, Asterix, Agatha Christie, L. Frank Baum, The Simpsons...all very different styles and stories, but good writing is to be found with all of them. The point is, in order to be published in the first place, there is at least SOME standard that has to be achieved, and if one's writing sounds like a dull grade school composition, weak with cliches and unintentionally poor constructions, then it fails to meet the standard and there's no way it would be published. Book critics are at leisure to discuss the story, development, characterization and interpretations...they are not forced to contend with the fact that the author wrote something TERRIBLE like:

"It was dark and stormy out and thunder clouds glared loomingly on the black horizon. Jade Johnson angrily pushed her short blond hair out of her blue eyes and scowled poutingly at the horizon."

or

"The stove entrance was dark like the mouth of a wolf."

Do you know what I mean? That's just terrible writing, and I don't think any book publisher would ever accept that.

You must not have read The Da Vinci Code.

I would like to see people of different ages and races, as well as more surreal worlds and made up creatures. I'm a bit tired of most characters fitting the same profile of young, white, and beautiful, whether male or female, though I have to say the female characters all seem to be carbon copies of one another more than the males do. (Zoe, April, Kate etc). It makes the story dull. I want to see interesting elderly characters, more cultures, and fewer stereotypes. I don't want games to suffer from the same lack of originality that Hollywood often does.

As long as games are a commercial, popular medium, most characters will be young and beautiful (just like on TV). And as long as white people are the largest and most well-to-do audience in the US, and the demographic from which most game designers are recruited, the characters will be mostly white. More variety would be great, but there are commercial realities to keep in mind, too. Maybe you should try some underground games? For example, in The Shivah you play a middle-aged rabbi.

Re: surreal worlds and imaginary creatures, I don't see how that's anything other than a personal preference.

I don't agree about the puzzles not fitting with Grim Fandango's story line. The Art Deco period was all about progress and movement and machinery and they blended that well with the atonement and sojourning themes in the Dia de los Muertos side of the story. What sorts of puzzles do you feel would have been more appropriate?

I think you're exaggerating the connection between Art Deco and machinery. I also think it doesn't justify the mechanical puzzles in Grim Fandango, since most of the machines weren't actually Art Deco (The Number 9 being the exception). The number of mechanical obstacles in Grim Fandango make about as much sense as, say, a game where you play a lawyer, but where the gameplay has nothing to do with finding facts and legal arguments to win your case, but is all about getting the elevators to take you to the right floor.

Manny has many different jobs throughout the game, but apart from one scene as a reaper, they aren't used for the gameplay at all. And he figures out most of the conspiracy without any player input at all. Why not make some puzzles around that? More puzzles about getting to know people, gaining their confidence or interrogating them would fit the story. And since Grim Fandango is all about Manny's character arc, moral choice along the lines of The Pandora Directive or Blade Runner would not be out of place.

Apart from the mechanical puzzles, I felt that the whole style of traditional inventory puzzles felt very contrived in Grim Fandango. I'm not sure I can explain why, but it felt like a game held back by gameplay convention, instead of having the play arise naturally from the concept. To put it another way: If Tim Schafer made a sequel to Grim Fandango, I wouldn't expect it to be an adventure game.

[Rulzern]

When reading this thread, I see three distinct stances on the whole deal with the writing quality.

-The writers are bad
-Writing and games don't go together
-The genre is still young

The way I see it, is that if any one of these is valid, it's the last point. There is so much more that goes into a game's writing than that of a movie or a book.

Technical obstacles:
When you are writing for a game, you can't just write "John went to the door, and looked back at *player* with a smirk on his mouth", this means scripting, animation, and maybe some coding. That's maybe 5 hours of work for one sentance. This severely limits your options on what you can write, and how much life you can give to your characters, for example.

Differences from writing:
There's a big difference in games in that you should, whenever possible, show and not tell. This adds to the technical obstacles mentioned above. You can't really have any written descriptions of anything inside the game, this has to be done by artists and whatnot.

Timing:
In games, it's much harder to get the timing right, if you're not doing things through cut-scenes (which is a very bad idea in the first place). The player will play at his own pace, and will only tolerate his pace being dictated by the game a very limited amount of times. (who here likes timed puzzles?).

Gameplay:
How will your writing interact and enhance the gameplay? What happends if the player doesn't do what you want the player to do?

Amount of writing:
Depending on the players actions, you should ideally have different reactions to things, and keep the game more or less open (atleast conceal the linearity as good as possible), this may include bending and twisting the actual storyline, which means a lot of "secondary scenarios".

Interactivity:
All the while you have to keep in mind that the player is supposed to be shaping and directing the story, you can't guide the player down a path, you have to make the player choose "your" path.

Changes in the plan:
Games development is riddled with "on-the-fly" changes to vital game components, components that may make your writing ineffective, useless, strange, boring, bad or stupid. If you wrote a script for a game with full facial animation, and then the facial animation is scaled down to "barely noticable" 1 month before release, your writing suddenly looses half of it's "oomph".

I could probably keep writing for another good half an hour or so, but I'm sure you get the point already, there is a HUGE difference between writing for movies/theatre/books/etc. and writing for games. While we, the gamers, sit and say "the writing is bad", there is really a lot of stuff that goes down "behind the scenes" that the writer is responsible for, that we pay no mind to.

Also keep in mind that the main plot may be set in stone by the designers before the writer(s) start working on a project, because in the end, games don't start development after the writers are done writing their script, writers are hired to bring the game to life.

Some interesting reads:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...noyle_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...adams_01.shtml
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...ister_01.shtml

Good luck in your game writing career, may your games be fun and plentiful.

[SnorkleCat]

I have just begun playing Myst V End of Ages! I'm thrilled! I have never played any of the Mysts, but now that I am, I am so pleased with the game and I do not think that the long dramatic monologues harm the play at all. We need more such innovation. I like the writing and the fact that there's plenty of it! I'm entranced! I feel like I'm in a play!

[Fop]

Long monologues are innovation?

[squarejawhero]

Sounds like the kind of thread I'd reply to...

[SakSquash]

It lives.

[SnorkleCat]

Long monologues are innovation?

Noooooo..what I meant was that Myst was an innovative addition to adventure gaming.