[Trumgottist]

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Just to clear up further misunderstandings, let me be perfectly clear: "relatively" here means "relative to the one playing".

While in some way I do agree with you (being a better listener does let you hear things that a non-educated listener won't notice, adding more layers to the experience), at the same time I disagree completely. A good performer (I chose the word deliberately here, rather than musician) places the experience of the audience above his own at the moment.

Let me also add two simple examples to show another part of my point (I think I have a point in here somewhere): What about a concert where the musician afterwards isn't happy about the music. For one reason or another it didn't go as planned, and the musician's experience was ruined. But audience at the same concert had a positive experience and enjoyed the music which after all was pretty good.

Or the concert where the musician gets so lost in his own playing, letting go and enjoying it while losing focus and creating less good music because of it? Neither example is hypothetical - they are taken from personal experience.

I'm certainly not claiming the the experience of the performer is any less than the audience, either. I think any such statement is too generic. I'm not even sure the appreciation of the experience can be compared or graded. It's too individual. As long as someone enjoys it, the music has a point.

[Trumgottist]

It's sort of game making. I make games because I enjoy the process of doing so. It's that simple. But in the end, the goal of the finished game is to let other people have fun. I can't even get the same kind of experience from my game as someone else playing it. When I hear from people that enjoyed my creation, that may be the best part of it all. (Or at least a very good part of it.)

[Giligan]

Originally Posted by Trumgottist

It's sort of game making. I make games because I enjoy the process of doing so. It's that simple.

Same thing with building models, really.

[MoriartyL]

Originally Posted by Trumgottist

Let me also add two simple examples to show another part of my point (I think I have a point in here somewhere): What about a concert where the musician afterwards isn't happy about the music. For one reason or another it didn't go as planned, and the musician's experience was ruined. But audience at the same concert had a positive experience and enjoyed the music which after all was pretty good.

Or the concert where the musician gets so lost in his own playing, letting go and enjoying it while losing focus and creating less good music because of it? Neither example is hypothetical - they are taken from personal experience.

In the first case, the portion of the experience which the listener doesn't appreciate -the process, the more meaningful portion- is where the music went wrong. The player, seeing the whole of the music, is satisfied with very little of what he sees, because the end result is less significant than the process. However, the listener gets everything he expected out of the music, because he couldn't have expected any more than that superficial portion of the music seeing as how he has no participation.

In the second case, the player is not concerned at all with the portion the audience can appreciate. He is only getting the process, rather than the end result, but since the process is more satisfying than the end result he has no problem with this. But the listener gets nothing, or close to nothing.

Originally Posted by Squinky

I didn't know the end result was all that mattered in painting! Gee, I guess you learn something new every day...

I don't see where this sarcasm is coming from. The end result of painting is the finished work of art. If there is something that matters about art other than art, then I would be very interested to hear what it is.

[Squinky]

Well, I just don't see why a painter can't enjoy the process of painting like a musician can enjoy the process of playing music. That is all.

[MoriartyL]

Hm. That's something to think about.

[Trumgottist]

Let me see if I've understood you correctly: To you, the most important quality of music is the meditative aspect of the music making.

If I got that right, I still disagree, but at least now I understand your position and how you can argue the things you did.

[lumi]

Originally Posted by Squinky

Well, I just don't see why a painter can't enjoy the process of painting like a musician can enjoy the process of playing music. That is all.

Originally Posted by MoriartyL

Hm. That's something to think about.

A painter can most definitely enjoy the process of making. I paint, so I've actually experienced that.