[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

http://www.isna.org

Which reminds me. The articles on isna might interest tempsie, too, because they're rather supportative of the biology aspect (though not exclusively).

(I'm guilty of having read almost their entire "FAQ" section in a fit of boredom one day... Damn you, Scott! Damn you.)

[SakSquash]

Originally Posted by Trep

I think he's quite right, unfortunately. However, he seems to only be limiting his arguments to civilized, technology dependent, industrialized 21st century cultures and societies. What about tribes in New Guinea or Africa, where there are still highly demarcated differences between gender roles? Even at this stage we still have vestiges of that 'hunter gatherer' mindset, as recent as the 1950s when the man worked to provide for his family and the woman stayed home and baked bread, and few people strayed from that.

He did mention something about tribal cultures to back up his argument, saying that little boys in those tribes don't seem interested in GI Joes and such, but I told him it's impossible to know that without actually showing them a GI Joe. Maybe they would like it! And I added that the boys in that tribe probably had an interest in hunting with the older males and that they probably had their old form of gender activities that they like not only because they were forced to like them as children, but because it's imprinted in their brain.

I still think he's being narrow minded.

[saucyminx]

Hmm... maybe you might find this article interesting. While many assumes that us Asians promote male dominance, there are a few traditional customs which are more matriarchal. Maybe it is not relevant to this thread, but I thought you guys might like to check it out:

The name 'Adat Perpatih' is derived from Datuk Parapatieh Nan Sebatang, a nickname used by Sutan Balun. Adat Perpatih was introduced in Negeri Sembilan subsequent to the migration of the Minangkabau in the 14th century. It is the local variation of the motherland's. The custom is practised by twelve clans (the biggest family unit) which are Biduanda, Batu Hampar, Paya Kumboh, Mungkal, Tiga Nenek, Sri Melenggang, Sri Lemak, Batu belah, Tanah Datar, Anak Melaka, Anak Acheh and Tiga Batu.

The principle feature of Adat Perpatih is the matrilineal system in which the nucleus of the society is the female and her female offsprings. Membership of clan is for life. A clan leader is known as Lembaga, a hereditary position among the perut members (family unit of the same decadence) of the clan. The smaller family unit after the perut is ruang and the smallest unit is rumpun headed by Besar. The leader of a perut is known as the Buapak while for the ruang is Kadim. The selection of Lembaga is done democratically where unanimous concensus by members of the clan is sought along with the blessings of Undang. Undang takes the role of 'a sovereign ruler' for a luak, the authority of whom is clearly defined in the proverbs "Kata Bercari Kepada Lembaga, Sah Batal Kepada Undang'.

The origin of the Undang Yang Empat (The Four Law Givers) can be traced back to the four great chiefs or To' Batin's who headed for different areas of Negeri Sembilan to set up new settlements. Three were men while one a woman. The woman elected to remain in Johol and the three men separated with their followers. One went to Jelebu, one to Klang and one to Sungai Ujong. Thus, luak Sungai Ujong, luak Jelebu, luak Klang, and luak Johol.

Though the proverbs mentioned that the Undang has the local autonomy, the final decision lies in the hands of the Lembaga. This shows the importance of cooperation among the traditional leaders as mentioned in the proverb: "Bulat air kerana pembetung, bulat manusia kerana muafakat."

In the modern political and administrative systems, luak Sungai Ujong, Rembau, Jelebu and Johol are still headed by Dato' Undang. However, their authority is confined only to matters related to Adat Perpatih.

Adat Perpatih has its own unique rules regarding the matrimonial ceremony, divorce and inheritance. For example, a man is prohibited from marrying a women of his clan, while marriage between maternal first cousin are also prohibited. Meanwhile, meticulous phases of matrimonial ceremony is to be observed starting from merisik, meminang, hari solek and menyalang.

Wealth in Adat Perpatih is divided into four; harta pembawaan (wealth owned by the wife before marriage), harta dapatan (wealth owned by the wife after marriage) , harta carian (wealth gained by the couple after marriage) and harta pesaka (inherited wealth). This rules may appear strict but the philosophy that lies behind it is noble and just. It is this rule that makes Adat Perpatih distinct from other systems.

Adat Perpatih that has been assimilated with Islamic law has great influence on the local socio-cultural, political and economic activities. Every conflict is resolved harmoniously apt to the Islamic principle as mentioned in the proverbs "Adat Bersendikan Hukum, Hukum Bersendikan Kitabullah".

Somehow your arguments just inspired me to put up this article.

(From http://www.tourismnegerisembilan.com...e=AdatPerpatih)

If I understood what my mom had told me before correctly, basically in this particular custom, the womenfolk had more rights compared to their male relations. Therefore let's just say if there had been death, the daughters should be favoured first to inherit than the sons.

I thought I'd just share, s'all.

[Melanie68]

My niece, who is 4, absolutely loves and adores the Disney princesses. Likes to wear the tiara, etc. But at the same time, she plays rough and tumble with the boys at daycare (I don't what toys she plays with there). So I think females can and are now starting to appreciate all different ways of playing (companions, toys). I think I am very female but at the same time I don't always get what a lot of women go ga-ga over (shoes, shopping, etc.). As for me, I've always loved hardware stores (yea, I'm weird).

[Trep]

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

He did mention something about tribal cultures to back up his argument, saying that little boys in those tribes don't seem interested in GI Joes and such, but I told him it's impossible to know that without actually showing them a GI Joe. Maybe they would like it! And I added that the boys in that tribe probably had an interest in hunting with the older males and that they probably had their old form of gender activities that they like not only because they were forced to like them as children, but because it's imprinted in their brain.

I still think he's being narrow minded.

But I would ask him to go back further than the idea of social conditioning. Where did it start in the first place that the men were the ones to start hunting and protecting and the women to start nurturing and preparing the food? Does it have to do with the fact that when women are pregnant they can't defend themselves and are too weak to hunt and thus the men took it upon themselvs to do all that?

[Sage]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

Which reminds me. The articles on isna might interest tempsie, too, because they're rather supportative of the biology aspect (though not exclusively).

(I'm guilty of having read almost their entire "FAQ" section in a fit of boredom one day... Damn you, Scott! Damn you.)

Ha-ha, made you think!

ScottMate

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Thrift Store Scott

Ha-ha, made you think!

Not true, not true! *sticks fingers into ears and sticks out tongue*

[Trep]

What's wrong with thinking, pinksie?

[SakSquash]

Originally Posted by pinkgothic

Which reminds me. The articles on isna might interest tempsie, too, because they're rather supportative of the biology aspect (though not exclusively).

(I'm guilty of having read almost their entire "FAQ" section in a fit of boredom one day... Damn you, Scott! Damn you.)

Like I said, i'm not supporting it exclusively, but to set it up in a chart:

[pinkgothic]

Originally Posted by Trep

What's wrong with thinking, pinksie?

Shh, you're bursting the bubble. Party pooper.

[Jazhara7]

I knew a boy that played with Barbies, and didn't think anything wrong about it.


And I liked knights for a long time (still do, actually. I have one standing in my room, in front of a small diorama I built from Playmobil. "Rescuing the Prince" I call it. The princess [or rather maid. There's no princesses I have by Playmobil. Only relatively sensibly dressed women.] has a sword and a shield, and lurks to strike at the dragon, while a couple of knights she brought along for that distract the dragon. What? Did you think she'd just run there and fight a creature more than ten times her size alone? In which way is it that the prince get caught, in your opinion? Oh, and the dragon figure is actually a Black Knight with removeable body parts. But it is the tought that counts! ).


I think it all depends. I guess some people also like things that they are 'not supposed' to like, because they are the wrong gender. Like boys having pink as their favourite colour. Or girls liking guns (I personally always preferred Bow and arrow).

Oh, and I never got the hang of riding and horses. Sure, I used to buy "Wendy", that riding magazine with comic for girls. But that soon stopped (I still read the "Micky Maus", though. )


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[SakSquash]

Originally Posted by Jazhara7

I knew a boy that played with Barbies, and didn't think anything wrong about it.


And I liked knights for a long time (still do, actually. I have one standing in my room, in front of a small diorama I built from Playmobil. "Rescuing the Prince" I call it. The princess [or rather maid. There's no princesses I have by Playmobil. Only relatively sensibly dressed women.] has a sword and a shield, and lurks to strike at the dragon, while a couple of knights she brought along for that distract the dragon. What? Did you think she'd just run there and fight a creature more than ten times her size alone? In which way is it that the prince get caught, in your opinion? Oh, and the dragon figure is actually a Black Knight with removeable body parts. But it is the tought that counts! ).


I think it all depends. I guess some people also like things that they are 'not supposed' to like, because they are the wrong gender. Like boys having pink as their favourite colour. Or girls liking guns (I personally always preferred Bow and arrow).

Oh, and I never got the hang of riding and horses. Sure, I used to buy "Wendy", that riding magazine with comic for girls. But that soon stopped (I still read the "Micky Maus", though. )


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Yeah, but a lot of that stuff you probably developed at a later age where you were more influenced by society, thus choosing to defy gender roles.

[Sage]

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

Yeah, but a lot of that stuff you probably developed at a later age where you were more influenced by society, thus choosing to defy gender roles.

I got several whippings for playing Barbies with the girl next door, so I tried making dresses out of tissue paper for my G.I. Joes on the sly. G.I. Joe makes a thoroughly unconvincing woman no matter how you dress him up, but he doesn't mind if you throw away...*ahem*, "lose" his guns and build him and his friend a fabulously decorated dream house...*ahem*, "mission control center".

ScottMate

[Jeysie]

I was raised by parents who basically let me do anything I wanted as long as it made me happy and wasn't illegal. ;P I also was raised mostly by my father, since my mom worked nights.

I played with Barbies and GI Joes, I played floor hockey and skip rope games, I wore lacy skirts with Nintendo sweatshirts, I watched Rainbow Brite and Voltron, etc. I love math, science, and computers - traditionally "male stuff", but my vocabulary skills are somewhat better, stereotypically "female", I guess.

In short, I was left to my own devices in regards to gender role as a child, and ended up with a somewhat equal mix of all the things from both "sides" that I find appealing.

I think myself that when it comes to preferences in anything, it's based much more on the individual's nature than on "gender nature". In fact, I've found in general that the differences between individuals seem more significant to me than differences between genders.

I will say I do find that in general women seem to be more self-conscious and cautious than men do (and that includes myself). I find I tend to be a little more comfortable around men because they tend to be less inhibited/reserved with their actions and feelings. (shrug)

Peace & Luv, Liz

[Jazhara7]

Originally Posted by temporaryscars

Yeah, but a lot of that stuff you probably developed at a later age where you were more influenced by society, thus choosing to defy gender roles.

Well, partly. Riding is not very popular in my family (to tell the truth, I can't think of a single family member that rides. And my family is so large [at least on the side of my father], that it deserves to be called a clan!).


But I also loved to play with toy cars (especially if they have a pullback motor), marbles and remote controlled cars. Also, I loved to play with our Darda track (A racing track for toy cars. Two Formula 1 style cars with extra strong pullback motors came with it - because they had to be able to go through the loopings. I still have them, and the track is downstairs.). When I was a bit older (primary school), a friend and I played Indians (no cowboys. Just Indians) in our garden. We took some of the dry Bamboo we have standing around (we have two large 'bushes' of bamboo. And a smaller one, that is a bit more dainty), and put them together. Then we put a sheet over it, so that it was a tipi.


I am not denying that some aspects of gender roles are taught to children. But I also think that other things aspects are not.

EDIT: I guess I was a bit like you, Jeysie. My parents were quite flexible when it came to what we were allowed to play, too. Also, the only two TV series she would not let me watch (I guess it was for the better), were "Pixi im Wolkenkuckucksheim" ("The Hans Christian Andersen Fairytales"), because it was extremely kitschy (and she couldn't stand Pixi, I think.), and "Tom Sawyers Abenteuer" ("Adventures of Tom Sawyer"), which was not really kitschy, but I often got Nightmares from it.

My favourite series were anyway "Ulysses 31" (The story of Ulysses in the 331 century, in space. A collaborative work between Japan and France.) and "Captain Future" (A japanese series set in Space, based on the Pulp Fiction stories by Edmond Hamilton. The studio who made "Captain Future" later made "Interstella 5555" with Daft Punk).

Originally Posted by Thrift Store Scott

I got several whippings for playing Barbies with the girl next door, so I tried making dresses out of tissue paper for my G.I. Joes on the sly. G.I. Joe makes a thoroughly unconvincing woman no matter how you dress him up, but he doesn't mind if you throw away...*ahem*, "lose" his guns and build him and his friend a fabulously decorated dream house...*ahem*, "mission control center".

ScottMate

*sees GI Joe in Tissue dress* Seargent Clinger, is that you?



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P.s.: I never got the hang of dollshouses.