Gender Roles
 

Ok, I got in a big fight with my psychology professor because he said that boys and girls are taught at a young age to like masculine and feminine things based purely on their social situations and that it has nothing to do with biological or genetic makeup. I argued that our biological makeup has an influence on it all because it is what pushes society to teach us in that way. For example, boys like GI Joes and guns because it is part of our mental imprint to be more aggressive, or if you want to look at it in early human evolution standards, to be the hunters and providers, so boys tend to like those things, not simply because their parents told them to like them. And their parents, more specifically their fathers, sort of influence them to like them because they went through the same development stage and have an interest in similar things.

He told me I was just wrong and I told him he sucked. What do you think?

I'd say it is very complex and a lot of factors tend to play a role into what we (as groups) think and like, both sociological and biological. I do not think, though that it is very relevant to compare with how things were when humans were hunters and gatherers.

You're just wrong. ;)

Don't you dare take me seriously.

You know i'm right!

I'm not so sure it has to do with a lot of factors. Because it happens at such a young age, how many sources of influence do we have other than those who take care of us and what we're born with?

I think that because it happens at such a young age, there are many sources of influence. When we've not yet learned to filter what out mind gets to chew on, or are just in the process of learning this.

Just a thought.

You're both right.

And both suck.

And what would those other influences be?

There are lots of people in your environment even at a young age, and you go to different places and you do lots of things all of which eventually alter the way the young budding mind will think. And influences might not always go the way one would think, with the child eventually rebelling against the said influence, for example.

It is wrong to trivialise the question, but I happen to think that a lot (not all, but a lot) of the gender differences can be explained by social factors.

Another point is that by always talking about genders and supposed gender differences you cement said differences.

I think you need to study more and eventually get a PhD. I think it's a little of both. Each sex is born with a biological predisposition to go with one role or the other. BUT, it can be steered (i.e. manipulated) by social conditioning - pink for girls, blue for for boys; Barbie for girls, G.I. Joe for boys; Home Economics class for girls, and sports for boys. Conversely, studies have shown that roles can be 'switched' for each gender also by social conditioning. There are as well other various factors - culture, religion, socio-economics, technological and industrial, etc.

And there are variances in how this works. There are some primitive tribes where the women dominate the men in some ways. There's also research done showing that male sons of Lesbian parents tend to be more nurturing and less aggressive than boys raised by 'traditional' heterosexual parents. And how are effeminate men explained? And aggressive women who play sports to compete? There are also instances of males wanting to become female through sex change operation, and vice versa.

Keep in mind, too, that most of the world no longer lives in a primitive 'hunter gatherer' phase, hasn't for centuries, and that humans are still evolving and becoming even more complex, thus the cultures and societies we live in are also evolving, often to the point where gender roles have finally become a matter of choice.

It looks to be far more complicated than your 'mental imprint' suggests. There are many other influencing factors involved, especially today, with gender roles themselves becoming more of a choice based on a bunch of factors.

I happen to think hormonal (testosterone and estrogen) influences during gestation shape our behaviors strongly. Possibly some of these can be affected, like any genetic expression, through environmental stimuli (parents exposing a girl to GI Joes e.g.).

Here is one article - An Evolutionary Perspective of Sex-Typed Toy Preferences: Pink, Blue, and the Brain that discusses the gender and toy preference.

Identical twin boys were born some years ago and because of an accident you REALLY don't want to know the details of, one was raised as girl for his entire life. It totally didn't take, and he wasn't at all interested in anything frilly or feminine at any time, but wanted to do all the rough-and-tumble things his brother did.
I'll go with nature over nurture, but both play a role.

ScottMate

It's not my major, just a gen-ed course i'm forced to take. Besides, I hold the position that's it both, he held the position that it had nothing to do with biology.

My point exactly. I think social influences play a greater role the older we get.

I'm now wishing that I hadn't thrown away the old copy of New Scientist I had that had an article looking at intersex children and whether or not parents should determine their gender. Unfortunately, New Scientist requires a subscription to read it online :frown:...

In that case he seriously needs to throw his textbook attitude aside and get the hell out there in the world and actually SEE FIRSTHAND what's going on.

Well, he did make a good point at the end of class. He was talking about how if you see a man acting or doing something in a feminine way, or a female doing something in a masculine way, he said that most of us will say "Oh man, he must be gay" and "Man, she must be a dyke," and he said "Next time you say that, stop and think about why you had to say that out loud to yourself." That's a very good point.

He also said we should unlearn all of the gender specific stuff we were taught as children and that we'd live happier if we did that. I think that's impossible to do, but I can only afford one fight per day.

If it helps, there is a similar topic here: http://www.isna.org/faq/third-gender (thanks to Scott for making me aware of isna.org in the first place)

I think he's quite right, unfortunately. However, he seems to only be limiting his arguments to civilized, technology dependent, industrialized 21st century cultures and societies. What about tribes in New Guinea or Africa, where there are still highly demarcated differences between gender roles? Even at this stage we still have vestiges of that 'hunter gatherer' mindset, as recent as the 1950s when the man worked to provide for his family and the woman stayed home and baked bread, and few people strayed from that.

"Biology has nothing to do with it"? Has this guy been living under a rock for the last...forever? Does he have no children of his own?
Give this clueless individual the answers he wants on the exams, pass the course, and laugh like Hell every time you think about this professor in the future.

ScottMate

Well, I don't think I do anything specific to my gender. I even detest rose pink (it's magenta I like), before someone points out my name. And I do live an exceptionally happy life. Yet I'm not going to believe that what he said there is neccessarily true - yes, my life would be a great example of how this seems to be true, but I'm sure there's other examples, too.

...so I guess I don't really have a point. :P