[mag]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

If that's what you believe, then I'm not going to change your mind. Perhaps you should stop targeting people directly in your posts, then? It comes across as antagonistic and egotistical.

Well, if you consider responding to specific points to be "targeting people," "antagonistic," and "egotistical," then that's your problem. But to the rest of us, that's what's known as "conversation."

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

What's happening now shouldn't be. We're not talking about what is being done, because we know what's being done...

Actually, we were talking about what is being done.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

...we're talking about why these people are suffering in a western, rich nation when every measure should've been taken to protect and safeguard against these kind of issues.

As I've said, there were a lot of things that could have been done. But talking about what could have been doesn't do anything to help those people in New Orleans who are dealing with what is.

Originally Posted by fov

What happens if/when there's another major terrorist attack on this country? 9/11 wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been weaknesses in the airline security system to begin with. What happens when some terrorist group decides to exploit the multitudes of weaknesses that have become apparent in the emergency relief system?

Did anybody really think America was ready for a terrorist attack?

mag

[kwbridge]

Originally Posted by mag

Did anybody really think America was ready for a terrorist attack?

mag

I sure don't ... even more so now.

Coffee Cup Software in Corpus Christi, Texas is taking donations of material goods and have information on their website.

http://www.coffeecup.com/hurricane/

I was upset because the Red Cross, etc. are only taking money right now and I don't have any - I was going to have a yard sale to raise some money but I also have a couple of boxes full of baby clothes that I am going to wash and send to this company. If any of you have material goods rather than money, this is a good place to send it - even crayons and coloring books, clothes, blankets, etc.

[squarejawhero]

Originally Posted by mag

Well, if you consider responding to specific points to be "targeting people," "antagonistic," and "egotistical," then that's your problem. But to the rest of us, that's what's known as "conversation."

No, if you look at what you did, you took someones post (mine in this example) and belittled me. I wa angry when I posted and I'm pretty sure you can understand that, I'm not going to hold back on it and I very rarely make an outburst like that. You underestimated my own knowledge and appreciation of the situation, and I felt talked down to. It might not have been your intent, but thats how it seemed this end, and then brushed off my points as "bullshit", asking me questions you know I can't, and you can't, provide an answer for.

So you tell me what else you would do that isn't already being done.

What did you mean by this, then, if it wasn't antagonistic? You can't seriously have been expecting a genuine answer - that's insane. My point is about preplanning, and my original post was shock at the severity of the situation and my incredulity at how slowly anything seemed to be being done and how ineffectual the action being taken was. I'm not the only one, either, and I know I'm not the only one on a political level.

Actually, we were talking about what is being done.

No, you brought in factual figures which say nothing nor question the scale of the response. That's what I'm doing - I'm questioning why this has occured the way it has... you might not feel the need to, but we respond in different ways. A little appreciation to those of us who connected to it more emotionally than yourself might be required.

As I've said, there were a lot of things that could have been done. But talking about what could have been doesn't do anything to help those people in New Orleans who are dealing with what is.

And what is being done hasn't helped those who need it at the Superdome, has it. Chucking supplies out of a heli and taking off? How does that help anyone if it's not properly distributed? Why weren't there armed men on that heli keeping people at bay - bearing in mind that the response was only by a handful of the strongest who could get to it? A woman stood in front of the heli questioning the point, she couldn't get to the supplies, and pointed to the fact that only the strong were making off with them. If you think those people then ran over to the group of people in need she was with, you've got another thing coming.

The response has been ineffectual compared to the scale of the situation. Any good that is being done has been swamped by the enormity of the task that's at hand... that's not to say the people on the ground there who're helping aren't doing the right thing, but only that until a proper-scale response team can make it can we see any real resolution to the issues at hand. The govt. failed to provide that reponse and people have paid for it with their lives on their own land... questioning why is only natural, so don't carpet over those of us who want to air those views or talk as if our points are unimportant. Because that's exactly what you're doing.

[squarejawhero]

I'm out of this thread now. What's said is said, and it's not as if anything I'm typing makes a damn bit of difference anyhow.

[Once A Villain]

Wow. A lot of posts since last night. Anyway, I'm about to go out of town for the weekend (perhaps just one or two days or maybe until Monday, I'm not sure). Before I leave I just want to clarify something. I'm not saying Bush isn't an idiot. I'm not defending the cut of funding for the levees. What I'm saying is that eventually PEOPLE must do for themselves and stop blaming the government for everything. What I'm saying is that some of the blame rests on the shoulders of the vast majority of people crying in pictures that we see and we emotionally react with, "Oh my God, those poor people!" The poor people are the ones who were in hospitals or wheelchairs, truly helpless people...that's who deserves a swift rescue.

The rescue effort should not be criticised by the people in one picture I saw where a boat was manuevering between sunken cars in a parking lot while a bunch of people were screaming for help from their apartment windows above. Whose cars were those and why were they sitting there? No one can convince me that the majority of the people still in New Orleans had NO WAY to evacuate themselves or their family in 72 hours or even 24 hours. Where's the survival instinct? I would have gotten myself and my family out of that city somehow if the only thing we had were enough pairs of Nike's to go around.

Earlier someone (I think it was SoccerDude) said many have no place to go. I understand that. That's not the point. As I said in my earlier post, yes it would be emotional and terrifying to leave your home and escape to places where you have nothing and are nothing, but what other choice is there? That's my point. As I said, it should be a forgone conclusion that one's possessions and home will be destroyed or flooded, the only thing you can do is escape, survive, then move on from there. It'll be tough, but is there a point in staying? Judging by the violence, gunshots, rape, assault, etc. going on in New Orleans right now I'm sure most would say, "No."

I feel very sorry for the handicapped people, the sick people, the elderly poor. Basically I feel sorry for the people that deserve to be rescued first and are having to fight for a spot on the bus out of town with people who shouldn't even be there. I've seen completely capable human beings crying and whining as if they are the government's little children and must be taken by the hand, reeled out of their fishbowl and into a new life. Some people demand way too much for nothing. There are people I'm very sad for in New Orleans, but I'm sorry...I refuse to take the blame completely off the people and place it completely in the hands of the government or God. People need to stop making so many excuses. We really are a sorry lot...

And with that, I must head out of town. Hope I don't piss anyone off by stating my opinion.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by mszv

The thing that most concerns me about this thread is the moderation. Trep's response to Gilly's concern was way out of line - to be polite I'll say "in my opinion". Ordinarily, I'd send a note to Trep, but I'd like my concern to be listed on the forum.

You have to understand, mszv, that everyone here is distraught over this catastrophe, INCLUDING the people who work here. I did NOT respond to gilly as a mod, if you don't mind, but as a fellow human who is watching helplessly as his fellows are suffering in this catastrophe. I'm not being paid by AG to work here, so my posts fluctuate between Trep the mod and Trep the friend. What he stated was genuinely out of concern but it also felt awkward, scolding some of us for discussing how we feel. You're not in the same room with me, so you can't see the tears in my eyes as I watch the footage, the bodies floating in the water, lying on the sidewalks, pregnant women giving birth among all that filth, and I'm not there doing something about it.

I realize that moderators take sides on this thread and on all the threads, some much more than others. That's fine, that's the AdventureGamers way, but I question the sense of yelling at someone who had a serious concern and spoke about it passionately. That doesn't appear to me to be "keeping the peace", it's confusing your own opinions with being a mod.

Look, gilly and I get along perfectly well despite our occasional disagreements. I love gilly, he's a good friend who has seen me through bad times, and I've done the same for him and will continue so if he needs me. Given that, I think you read a little too much into my snapping at him.

But thank you for your constructive critism. I just think you misunderstood. gilly and I are both terribly upset over this horror, as I know you and others here are.

If you are going to moderate a thread that has political issues - I suggest that AG think about what they are doing, and develop some guidelines. Yes, I know, it's tricky.

Well, now you know how tricky it can be for me. Like I said, I fluctuate between being a mod and being a friend. Which one were you addressing?

[squarejawhero]

As if to magically reappear, SJH stepped back in (you knew I wouldn't stay away ). Once might find this quote off another forum I visit pertinent -

I saw on one news station a man holding a little baby up to the camera while ranting that there is no water or food for his little baby and it's the government's fault that he is reduced to stealing. I can tell you right now I would have been pleased as punch if the rest of the film showed someone blowing his head off on camera!! This SOB is the same man who held myself and my partner at gunpoint and stole the car and everything else a couple of years ago at Christmas-time!

[natalia]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

I'm out of this thread now. What's said is said, and it's not as if anything I'm typing makes a damn bit of difference anyhow.

Not true! Your posts have definitely helped to organize my own thoughts on this, and you are absolutely not alone in the questions that your asking as evidenced by the many, many editorials and news stories out today asking questions about the disaster response. Asking and answering these questions are absolutely vital to moving forward, imho.

[squarejawhero]

Youch. I do good after all!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I can't discredit you at all, squaresie, with your perspective on this. It's helpful overall. What we need to accept is that in this kind of situation many people can and have been reduced to primitive levels, a complicated mixture of despair, frustration, desparation, grief.... I'm watching CNN now and there are reports of people literally at each other's throats over gasoline .

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It's interesting how there are so many people there with the means to evacuate the area, and yet they decided to stay with the attitude of "I survived the hurricane Camille, I can survive this", or "I can't just leave my house and possessions just for this!".

And I was watching the news footage last night with big R, and he was far less sympathetic than I was about those people, and I said, "You do not f#&k with Nature. You just DON'T f#&k with her. Period."

[mag]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

No, if you look at what you did, you took someones post (mine in this example) and belittled me. I wa angry when I posted and I'm pretty sure you can understand that, I'm not going to hold back on it and I very rarely make an outburst like that. You underestimated my own knowledge and appreciation of the situation, and I felt talked down to.

You mean kind of like when somebody says that you're "burying your head in the sand?"

Which is my point exactly.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

What did you mean by this, then, if it wasn't antagonistic? You can't seriously have been expecting a genuine answer - that's insane.

Why shouldn't I expect a genuine answer? When I say that somebody is doing a poor job, I usually have some idea of what, specifically, that person is doing wrong. If you're going to say that the government is doing something wrong, I expect you to have some idea of what you would like to see done differently. I'm asking you what, other than the general idea of "helping people," you feel should be done.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

My point is about preplanning, and my original post was shock at the severity of the situation and my incredulity at how slowly anything seemed to be being done and how ineffectual the action being taken was. I'm not the only one, either, and I know I'm not the only one on a political level.

Well, when you're talking about what could have been done beforehand, I'm sure all of those questions will be answered in time. Right now, I'm more concerned about the current efforts that are in place. And when you're looking at that, all of these what-if questions are completely futile.

I was responding mainly to your earlier post about, "What the hell is the government doing?" in which you seemed to be talking about what the government is doing right now. If I misnterpretted you, then I apologize.

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

The response has been ineffectual compared to the scale of the situation. Any good that is being done has been swamped by the enormity of the task that's at hand... that's not to say the people on the ground there who're helping aren't doing the right thing, but only that until a proper-scale response team can make it can we see any real resolution to the issues at hand. The govt. failed to provide that reponse and people have paid for it with their lives on their own land... questioning why is only natural, so don't carpet over those of us who want to air those views or talk as if our points are unimportant. Because that's exactly what you're doing.

I don't think that is what I'm doing. I'm just saying that when you think about the resources necessary for dealing with a disaster of this scale, even if the government had perfectly planned for everything, it would still be a nightmare. And it wouldn't be because they weren't trying. It's simply that the scale of this vastly overwhelms the resources that are available to us. You can't wipe out an entire city and expect everything to get cleaned up quickly.

Originally Posted by Once A Villain

The rescue effort should not be criticised by the people in one picture I saw where a boat was manuevering between sunken cars in a parking lot while a bunch of people were screaming for help from their apartment windows above. Whose cars were those and why were they sitting there? No one can convince me that the majority of the people still in New Orleans had NO WAY to evacuate themselves or their family in 72 hours or even 24 hours. Where's the survival instinct? I would have gotten myself and my family out of that city somehow if the only thing we had were enough pairs of Nike's to go around.

This sort of blaming the victim is really unfair. Before entering the Gulf, Katrina was a prissy little Cat. 1. It wasn't until August 28, one day before it hit land, that people could predict how devastating this storm was going to be. Evacuations began shortly after Katrina was upgraded to a Cat. 5, but there are over a million people in New Orleans. Evacuating a city of that size in less than 24 hours is not an easy task. I mean, if you think traffic is bad during rush hour, just imagine what this was like.

And most of the people who were left behind were poor people. They don't necessarily have a radio or television to find out what's going on. Many of them don't have cars and can't afford transportation. What are you going to do? Try to outrun the hurricane on foot? You're better off hunkering down and trying to survive it.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

What we need to accept is that in this kind of situation many people can and have been reduced to primitive levels, a complicated mixture of despair, frustration, desparation, grief....

This is just one of my pet peeves, but the way people keep referring to what's going on as "primitive" or a "state of nature" is kind of inaccurate. As one of my friends put it, this has about as much to do with the "state of nature" as Frankenstein has to do with natural child birth.

mag

[Intrepid Homoludens]

mag, I'm not in a good mood over this atm, so I'm ignoring you for while, okay?

[mag]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

mag, I'm not in a good mood over this atm, so I'm ignoring you for while, okay?

Hey, whatever you gotta do. That comment wasn't really directed at you, though. I just mentioned it because I've seen a lot of people referring to what's going on in such terms, and it kind of irks me. I did say it was a pet peeve, didn't I?

mag

[fov]

Originally Posted by kwbridge

I was upset because the Red Cross, etc. are only taking money right now and I don't have any - I was going to have a yard sale to raise some money but I also have a couple of boxes full of baby clothes that I am going to wash and send to this company.

That's a nice thing to do. I'm sure they'll be well used and appreciated by people who need them.

[SoccerDude28]

Check out what Bungie is doing Selling Halo tshirts to give charity go Katrina

And they are also giving all their profits of september as well. Really nice.

[Ninja Dodo]

This is a horrible tragedy, but I can't help thinking that the notion of the the richest nation in the world being unable to afford a decent relief effort for its own citizens, while it continually blows billions on meddling in other people's business, is absurd... Considering the priorities of the Bush government I suspect most relief money will just go to blowing up more people in the Middle East.

[mag]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

This is a horrible tragedy, but I can't help thinking that the notion of the the richest nation in the world being unable to afford a decent relief effort for its own citizens, while it continually blows billions on meddling in other people's business, is absurd... Considering the priorities of the Bush government I suspect most relief money will just go to blowing up more people in the Middle East.

It's not just about the absolute level of wealth, though. It's about the distribution of that wealth. It's not like America has its own checking account with all the money in it that the president can just write a check for New Orleans. Trying to get the money, resources, and manpower to where they need to be can be very difficult, especially in a bureaucracy as bloated as the United States.

mag

[Ninja Dodo]

I think that if Bush can have Iraq invaded overnight, he can sort this mess out with a phone call. He just isn't bothered. I mean look at him, prancing about pretending to care about all the victims while he talks about how unacceptable the help is, which he knows full well is his fault, or at least easily within his power to change.

[natalia]

Originally Posted by Ninja Dodo

I think that if Bush can have Iraq invaded overnight, he can sort this mess out with a phone call. He just isn't bothered. I mean look at him, prancing about pretending to care about all the victims while he talks about how unacceptable the help is, which he knows full well is his fault, or at least easily within his power to change.

I too get sick watching Bush on TV. I wonder how he sleeps at night, considering the fact that his administration continued to cut funding from both FEMA and Southeast Lousiana flooding projects -- and considering the fact that he appointed a man (Michael Brown) as head of FEMA who had no prior public health or disaster or risk management experience (his last job was as commisioner of the International Arabian Horse Association, a job he had been fired from!).

And in my opinion, mag is right about the distribution of wealth in this country. America is the richest country, but Mississippi is the poorest state in the country. I believe Louisina is something like the fourth poorest (not sure about that), but 1/3 of the population of New Orleans lives below poverty level.

The reaction to this disaster, the suffering of the poorest citizens of our nation (suffering that could have been greatly alleviated if not prevented with better allocation of federal resources rather than continued tax cuts to the wealthy, imo) is bringing the media spotlight on poverty and class to many in this nation. I hope the issue of the crushing poverty that exists in so many parts of our own country continues to remain in the spotlight in future elections.