08-11-2005, 02:59 AM
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#161 | |
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Epinionated.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
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 C'mon dude, don't be so low as to make comments directed at one person when everyone's guilty of the same thing,
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08-11-2005, 03:02 AM
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#162 | |
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Dungeon Master
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
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What's happening? Wh... Where am I? |
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08-11-2005, 03:04 AM
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#163 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 900
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Anyway: I don't really want to get involved in this argument. The only Zelda game I've played is the very first one, and if that's an RPG, then someone has an extremely different definition of RPG than I have. But that's probably the case anyway. |
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08-11-2005, 03:22 AM
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#164 | |
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Dungeon Master
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
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Quote:
 Anyway, the Google subargument has really been silly from the start (though I sometimes check number of Google hits to find out which spelling of a particular word is correct; it usually gives accurate answers!  ). Let's end it.
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08-11-2005, 03:56 AM
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#165 |
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capsized.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,534
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I think we've talked about Zelda and the likes a couple of months back already.
http://forums.adventuregamers.com/sh...ghlight=genres And... The Legend Of Zelda is the benchmark for console adventure games http://archive.gamespy.com/articles/.../index20.shtml This whole discussion could go on forever anyway. Sheesh, they're only games after all.
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Look, Mr. Bubbles...! Last edited by samIamsad; 08-11-2005 at 04:15 AM. |
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08-11-2005, 04:17 AM
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#166 |
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Epinionated.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
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I'd never seen that thread. It's got more lucid argument than the majority I've read here too, from the same people, no less. Strange it disappeared off the radar without much discussion.
I'll leave Snarky's comment about JA+ alone for the moment. Although I do personally feel the site is a lot more inclusive games-wise than you make out, more so than AG'ers. The forum's a different matter though (much as I feel that they're all ggz).I'll make a final effort to show my thoughts clearly (and I know I'm only speaking for myself, I can't change your minds after all but know a lot of people that agree with me) - 1) I'm not willing to concede to two genres with the same name. That's just confusing and the second doesn't have any real definition to it nor any real connection between each game. 2) I do concede that some people, unaware of the original genre or the history and scope of games, might mistakenly label a game an "adventure" without prior knowledge of what "adventure games" are. This is what I mean by the second definition being "arbitrary". 3) I concede that the adventure game umbrella is wider than a lot of AG zealots make it out to be. I'm more inclusive but understand the need for labelling to avoid confusion when describing a game or style of play. 4) I'm might be willing to concede to the term "console adventure" (not "adventure" solo) as a genre if that genres definition makes sense. At the moment, it doesn't, and the games listed already have widely used genre labels or are original entities that defy traditional labelling (this does happen). Hope that's clear.
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08-11-2005, 04:20 AM
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#167 | |
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Epinionated.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
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08-11-2005, 04:20 AM
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#168 | |
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I'm complicated
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 736
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Just seen DEATH, and he'd said HI. |
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08-11-2005, 04:25 AM
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#170 | |
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capsized.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,534
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Well, it's helluvalot more freeform. And really, "this" adventure games covered here often suffer a lot from such an arbitrary definition what such an adventure game could be and could do within its theme and concept. But you've already noticed that this is more of a recent thing for yourself already.
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08-11-2005, 04:27 AM
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#171 |
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Psychonaut
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 5,114
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I go to work and this thread descends into insults and a game of reverse googlewhack.
If I search for Zelda RPG sex and get millions of hits do I win There are plenty of arguments from certain quarters dissecting posts to refute the Zelda is an RPG or Metroid is a FPS claims. And there have been plenty of post citing reasons and examples as to why they should be categorised that way. What seems to be missing is any convincing examples or reasons as to why they should be classified as adventures. SJH made a good point that Myst is an adventure that can be clearly linked to the beginnings of the genre in the same way the story based inventory ones can. They both are a product of a common ancestory that took different approaches to the genre. In the same vein Metroid is a direct product of the 2D platform game that proceeded it and a first person shooter viewpoint. Hence should probably be a platform shooter game and not an adventure. Zelda is a descendant of RPG with the statistics removed and mechanics simplified. It shares all the hallmarks of the RPG genre from the quest based gameplay to the villiage/dungeon settings to the shops and mini quests. There is no conversation trees/very little in the way of inventory/puzzles are pretty light and in line with the style of puzzles in rpg's rather than adventures. However that's just my opinion and people can categorise them however they like they are both decent games in their own right without all the pidgeon-hole crap.
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I'm not insane, my mother had me tested! |
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08-11-2005, 04:39 AM
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#172 | |
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capsized.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,534
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Huge difference: It shares some features that *became* hallmarks of what's now known as a (console, whatever) Action/RPG/Adventure/Blah game. Like I said, Miyamoto's idea or vision was to make a game about a boy who fights a bigger evil. This boy gets older, more experienced and stronger over the course of events. - Miyamoto decided to simulate this by increasing his life energy at certain points in the game -and is later old and experienced enough to free the land of said evil. The classification issues came later, when people tried to subsume these games under certain categories. And other companies tried to cash in on Zelda's success....
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08-11-2005, 04:52 AM
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#173 | |
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Epinionated.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
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A couple of points. Snarky noted that a site like JA+ is stricter in its definition - but look what happened when I reviewed Doom 3 on this site. This site, however, quite clearly delineates itself to adventure games and reviews them almost exclusively. Certainly the JA+ forum is much tighter in its definitions when this subject comes up. Truth is, despite the occasional meander down a new path, AG'ers quite clearly shows the scope most people are willing to accept as "adventure games" as per the definition. It's a wide umbrella but there's still a clearer delineation of subgenres and what comprises an adventure game than in this other second form which is being suggested in this thread. If there is a community of people with this idea of a new genre looking for somewhere to talk about them, if they googled for "adventure games" they'll find this site quite high up the top amongst a long list of sites that quite clearly advocate the one, old genre of "adventure". If there is a wide enough, organised group who want to perpetuate this new genre and legitamise it, why aren't there more people looking for tips or discussions on Zelda et al on this very site? Aside from a few misplaced words from journos and relative newbies to the gaming scene via consoles, methinks the wider gaming audience already have a good idea what an "adventure" is. Games like Ico, Zelda, Silent Hill and Metroid are still quite different to eachother in play terms. Their only real similarity, as sethez pointed out, it their decision to have a continuous gameworld and some concession to the occasional puzzle. But this isn't something that can actually define a genre, as the style of play is also important. These games DO rely on exploration, but then so does Far Cry and that couldn't be filed in the same place. They're more complicated than that title, but require drastically different skills of the player in essential areas. That's why they're "action" whatevers.
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08-11-2005, 05:19 AM
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#174 | |||||
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gin soaked boy
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Virovitica, Croatia
Posts: 4,093
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). Sometimes we agree on things, sometimes we don't, that's fine.I do think highly of you and that's precisely why I was so surprised by your last few posts. You just seem to shun away every piece of evidence and explanation by saying things like "that's wrong, I know my way around games and I've never heard of it, therefore it can't be true". I'm oversimplifying a bit, but that's the impression I got. I just wouldn't expect such stubborn resilience from you, not when it's clear that there are many people who think different (and by that I don't mean just the few of us here). No, you just say they're all wrong. And yes, I'm sorry if I insulted you. Quote:
So it's not that they could be right, they just don't know enough about games. Right. Quote:
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Zelda RPG - 661.000-581.000=80.000 Zelda RPG/adventure - 581.000 Zelda adventure - 1.820.000-581.000=1.239.000 Of course, it holds no merrit, as I stated in the first place, but SJH started it  This thread is becoming too big for me to follow. Anyway, here's just one possible (and pretty flawed, but I don't have time to find something better now) definition of a console-type adventure: Quote:
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08-11-2005, 05:32 AM
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#175 | ||||||
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Elegantly copy+pasted
Join Date: Jan 2005
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SJH, I see you've somewhat toned down your rhetoric later in the thread, which I appreciate. Just thought I'd acknowledge that up-front.
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I know for a fact that Zelda and Zelda clones (I remember Gargoyle's Quest) were classified as "adventure" by Nintendo back in the late eighties and early nineties. When people are using the word in this way, they are not ignorant of genre history, they're using it in a well-established sense. (MobyGames, which I don't really consider an authority on this kind of thing, but still .... classifies it as both Adventure and RPG) Quote:
As for these other terms, "action-adventure" is often (but I think not always) synonymous with "adventure" in this sense, and may even have been coined to reduce confusion. "RPG" is a different genre that arguably has a great deal of overlap with this adventure genre, and which some would say subsumes it completely. Now, we have to ask, how did games like Prince of Persia, Tomb Raider, and Metroid Prime come to be called adventures? Did it come about by widening the definition of the Zelda-adventure? By widening the definition of the King's Quest-adventure? Some combination of the two? Was it re-invented yet another time? I don't know yet, but I have some initial observations a) They are not called "adventures" nearly as often as Zelda-like games are called adventures b) If they're called adventures at all, it's usually "action-adventures" Make of that what you will. Quote:
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08-11-2005, 05:45 AM
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#177 | ||||
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capsized.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,534
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But you do have a point.Quote:
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08-11-2005, 06:10 AM
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#178 |
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Epinionated.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 5,841
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I'm going to agree to disagree. I can't see any justification for what you guys are claiming, even if it might seem clear to you.
As for the whole "I'm right, you're wrong" thing, well, I'm just saying that there are people with experience and there are people without. As with anything, the people with experience tend to dictate what things are called and have the knowledge to categorise. "Ignorant" isn't a term solely used in its derogatory sense. Doesn't make them any less justified within their remit of experience with games, but games - regardless of platform - have a history and its worth taking that into account rather than discounting it because a few people don't know it. It might be "snooty" or whatever, but its true. I'm not going to define Truffaut's films based on what little I know of them, am I? I might know a certain subset of movies released recently by a certain classification within my group of friends, but if that classification is taken, then I'm in the wrong and I'd have to change that myself. That's why there are film critics, boards which classify films and libraries which require some kind of division. It's an easy, nay lazy, way of doing things, but it's all about processing information in an easily digestible manner, which is important when you think about it. It might all be semantics, but they're important semantics on which sites like this require to thrive, in part. I've already said I'd quite happily accept "console adventure" but not straight out "adventure"... that term's already been claimed. But as I said, the net you've cast is too wide and the sources to ambigious for me, personally, to accept that definition. Even the definition you claim as the source of your argument doesn't cover the fundamental differences in the games you propose to include, and those games have already had genre definitions widely attatched to them without this being an issue. I also accept your starting point for your theory, but adventure games also have used action in the Adventure style in the '90's (why I dislike the term "traditional" being applied to games which frankly aren't). Naturally, everything has a beginning, but each of the games you're talking about has influences beyond that one title and their own lineage. Games like Myst or Syberia, like it or not, are related directly to past titles, as something like Monkey Island is to Kings Quest or 7th Guest is to *insert infocom title here*. The deliniation isn't there in this genre, or at least it isn't as clearly defined. I adknowledge, like yourself, that the term adventure is appropriated loosely to games that appear to fit it, but it's just that - loose. And not all the sources have much in common nor any particular thread or reason for it, which is what you appear to be formulating. I've pointed this out with sources like Gamespy who sometimes can't settle on one definition even within the same game series - that their definition differs from Nintendo's also makes it worth noting that sometimes they don't listen to the developers when they claim a genre and label it to their game. I've already asked why there aren't more people on these forums and others talking about adventures in the "console sense" you're claiming. The lack of people asking about them only suggest to me that the majority of people already know what sites like these are based on according to the terms they use. I think I'm done. You guys aren't convincing me, and vice versa, I guess.  Now I'm a moderate, lets see you guys try the same thread at JA+, Gameboomers or Mystery Manor and see what happens! (I'm hoping you will, actually)@Sam - let it be known Dimi doesn't post for JA+. He'd agree with me too on that one. I do disagree with your point to an extent that gamers think adventures are of a certain ilk, especially in these days of Dreamfall and Farenheit. Actually, most actually lament the lack of good ones where you can find these conversations and there's more respect for them than you'd think!
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08-11-2005, 06:24 AM
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#179 | |
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Dungeon Master
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Poland
Posts: 4,152
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"Age of Empires" strategy - 531,000 hits Seriously, let's cut it out. No more Google experiments from now on. EDIT: I have some points to make but won't be able to post them before evening. Hopefully, the thread will not grow out of control till then.
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08-11-2005, 06:28 AM
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#180 | |
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Beyond Belief
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Blighty
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