[Melanie68]

So the walkthrough thread has started talking about puzzles in adventure games. It may be a naive question, but what do you consider a puzzle? I don't know if everyone has the same definition in mind when they talk about having too many, not enough, horrible puzzles, etc.

Is it (*I edited the choices to reflect the poll I added later.)

Mazes, sliders, math related, decoding, mecanical, jigsaws, logic and the like
Using an inventory item
Dialogue
Other (specify please)
None of the above - Kind of a silly option now looking at it. Maybe?

I've just been feeling a tad confused when the word puzzle is used sometimes (especially when someone says they don't like them - which one's are they referring to?). I'm sure this thread has been done before but I'm lazy today and didn't look for it.

[AFGNCAAP]

[samIamsad]Arrgh... That word! plpsodffewojgeoirrrrr...[/samIamsad]

6.) All of the above. Puzzle is a cerebral challenge. Kurufinwe came up with a rather nice definition once, something along the lines of "an ingame obstacle where the challenge lies in figuring what to do rather than performing the action itself". I'll see if I can find it.

[After a brisk nap]

To me, a puzzle is a challenge that has to be solved in a particular way, and where finding out what that way is is more difficult than actually doing it once you know how.

So the puzzle isn't a particular action (e.g. using an inventory item). It's a structure of possible and impossible actions, which the player has to discern.

[MuyaMan]

Originally Posted by After a brisk nap

To me, a puzzle is a challenge that has to be solved in a particular way, and where finding out what that way is is more difficult than actually doing it once you know how.

Hmm, a very good definition, really (certainly explains the relatively low replay value of AGs).
Or, if we are to link this to the previous discussion, a puzzle is a thing that can be solved (or ruined?) by a walkthrough.

*hides under desk*

[MdaG]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

So the walkthrough thread has started talking about puzzles in adventure games. It may be a naive question, but what do you consider a puzzle? I don't know if everyone has the same definition in mind when they talk about having too many, not enough, horrible puzzles, etc.

Is it:

1.) Something in which things have to be put in the correct order?
2.) Using an inventory item?
3.) Talking with someone in the correct way to make the story progress?
4.) Fixing something?
5.) Others that aren't coming to me right away.
6.) All of the above
7.) Some of the above

I've just been feeling a tad confused when the word puzzle is used sometimes (especially when someone says they don't like them - which one's are they referring to?). I'm sure this thread has been done before but I'm lazy today and didn't look for it.

COuldn't some mode make those into a poll instead? 6 for me anyways.

[Erwin_Br]

I always thought 'puzzle' isn't really a description that fits. 'Obstacle' comes much closer.

--Erwin

[colpet]

I like to use the term puzzle in adventures to describe the more classic ones - variations on mazes, sliders, math related, decoding, mecanical, jigsaws, logic and the like. I would put true puzzles separate from inventory and dialogue challenges. However, it is really just a moot point, but it is useful for me since I prefer true puzzles in my adventures vs. the dialogue/inventory kind.

[Kurufinwe]

I would gladly answer the question, but my spokesman has obligingly done it for me, so I'll just go back to doing nothing instead.

[MoriartyL]

I see puzzles as mental challenges separate from the story. (Within "story" I always include characterizations, dialogue trees, limited exploration, and usage of inventory items which makes real-world sense.)

[Melanie68]

I made a poll for the poll lovers out there - multiple choice so there is no "all of the above" answer.

[MdaG]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

I made a poll for the poll lovers out there - multiple choice so there is no "all of the above" answer.

Where's the "all of the above" option?
*edit*
Nevermind

[Crapstorm]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

Is it:

1.) Something in which things have to be put in the correct order?
2.) Using an inventory item?
3.) Talking with someone in the correct way to make the story progress?
4.) Fixing something?
5.) Others that aren't coming to me right away.
6.) All of the above
7.) Some of the above

I'm just going to go with a Merriam-Webster dictionary definition here: "a question, problem, or contrivance designed for testing ingenuity."

A puzzle could take the form of any of your first 4 points, so long as there's some clever twist in the solution. The important thing is that it's a mental challenge, and one that can be met with inventive thinking.

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

So the walkthrough thread has started talking about puzzles in adventure games.

I personally would like to extend my sincerest apologies on this matter. I have this big shiny button right on the side of my head that says 'push if you want to argue about the need for more puzzles'. I'm SO bad.

It may be a naive question, but what do you consider a puzzle? I don't know if everyone has the same definition in mind when they talk about having too many, not enough, horrible puzzles, etc.

In my experience, there are two schools of thought on this; mine, and everyone else's

Is it:

1.) Something in which things have to be put in the correct order?
2.) Using an inventory item?
3.) Talking with someone in the correct way to make the story progress?
4.) Fixing something?
5.) Others that aren't coming to me right away.
6.) All of the above
7.) Some of the above

Most of 1 (the real world has sequential activities too, but most are based on clearly visible cause and effect. In puzzle games, you have to leave one room, observe activity in another, and return to tweak the process over and over until the right series of actions takes place, and you are able to proceed; good idea, but puzzle, regardless)

some but not all of 2 (if you use a 'real' object in another 'real' oject to make the mechanism work, then it's not really a puzzle, it's engineering, which is a form of real world problem solving; if you're combining two or more objects to get a Rube Goldberg device in order to perform a task as simple as pouring a cup of tea, you are doing a puzzle; if you are Maguyvering together an aztec statuette with a vacuum to get a laser powered shark, you're in wacky land, and should expect the last of the dodos to be along any time)

not really 3 (although it sometimes feels like it)

sometimes 4 (depending on if you're fixing the actual thing, or a surrogate minigame that represents the real thing)

lots of 5 (riddles, board games, clever locking mechanisms and boobytraps, actual honest to goodness jigsaw puzzles, pattern recognition tests, magic number sequences, word games, decoding exercises, trial and error dial/lever mechanisms that require lots of wandering around and staring at pixels to see if anything has changes, or going on elaborate goose chases to find a series of cryptic clues left behind by some dastardly villain, perhaps each contained within one of the aforementioned contraptions, although these at least border on true problem solving, even if they irritate folks who would rather do another shiny puzzle box thingy instead)

I've just been feeling a tad confused when the word puzzle is used sometimes (especially when someone says they don't like them - which one's are they referring to?). I'm sure this thread has been done before but I'm lazy today and didn't look for it.

This IS a very complex question, and the answer is pretty messy. That;s why the easiest, most comfortable thing to do is to put every form of non-action based problem solving under the unbrella of 'puzzles', which is what brings us to the argument I keep finding myself constructing, like the veritable Tower of Bab(b)el, out of playing cards, drawn in crayon.

Basically, every video game, no matter what the genre, has a problem, and a seires of actions you must perform to resolve the problem.

(to be continued)

[Lee in Limbo]

In Adventure Games, the problem usually stems from something or someone very important being missing or stolen/destroyed/kidnapped/dead. It is usually up to you to resolve said conflict through sleuthing and sometimes localized conflict.

When the sleuthing involves discovering clues, interrogating witnesses and tracking down leads, you are using real world problem solving. This is used in every Adventure Game, no matter how many puzzles it has besides. Still Life was an almost perfect example of this, barring a few really obnoxious examples of deliberate puzzle placement. And that lock picking puzzle? Devious, but irritating. Lose it! (just a suggestion )

When the sleuthing involves matching up one jar with one lid and carrying them to multiple locations and clicking them on anything that looks/sounds suspicious and that hopefully correlates with the symbol on the jar, you are playing a Puzzle Game.

Now mind you, that example happens to come from one of my favourite such games, so believe me, I'm not knocking it outright. However, that game really had very little to offer inthe way of plot progression outside of eventually stumbling across the series of clues that help you unravel the mystery behind the disappearances (although you still have to bottle the last couple of the Ixupi or DIE, sucker!).

There are devices and items in the real world that are without a speck of doubt puzzle devices in nature. Applying a certain level of puzzle logic to unlock the mysteries they protect is a perfectly rational approach to resolving that sort of problem.

As well, there are devices tha are not working properly, or that cannot work without the proper access code. Using a clever system of inventory experimentation for the former, or word play and cipher work on the latter, is also a rare but acceptable means of resolving the problem inherent in the devices inoperability... assuming you couldn't just use the key, read the manual, or reconnect the wires to the carburetor in a perfectly logical fashion.

Instead of these, we get a series of oddly shaped objects that are for some reason scattered across several miles and hidden in safes, chambers and around corners in labrynthine mine cart tunnels, which can be combined only in one place using a set of plans you had to hunt to find, and which then may or may not stop the villain from switching brains with a missing human scientist. Very cool idea. Loved the game. But a hand gun would have been so much more sensible. Or, to favour the spirit of Adventure Gaming, collapsing a tunnel and locking the creep under a tonne of rock would have been perfectly acceptable.

When you wrap your game around a premise that is little more than a plot summary bulked up by set pieces requiring mechanical (rube goldberg doohickey, sliding/turning/pushing mechanism), logical (as in pattern recognition, number games, word play, etc) or sequential puzzle logic, you put up barriers between immersion in the story, the belief in the environment, and all audience members but those who truly relish the experience of cracking the puzzle.

It's not that puzzles are bad. They can be quite fun on their own. But they absolutely dominate all but a few Adventure Games, whose stories and pacing suffer abominably in the interim. Casual members of the audience, who may want to experiment with interactive storytelling but who do not possess a stellar puzzle logic faculty, will be completely put off, and will abandon the genre altogether. There are a lot of these people, and they want to play too. But you won't let them play unless it's by your own very narrow standards of what a good Adventure Game should be.

For those who love Puzzle Games or who ar perfectly happy with the mix, this is only a problem as the tide turns away from puzzling and more towards real world problem solving exercises. They find themselves crying foul, and disparaging attempts to make Adventure Games that don't cater to Puzzle Game enthusiasts. They insist that all Adventure Games are de facto Puzzle Games, even though most (but not all) will admit that most Puzzle Games are not truly Adventure Games, in terms of the level of narrative focus.

See, this genre has become a schoolyard, with Puzzle Game enthusiasts dominating the conversation. They continue to denounce any attempts to make Adventure Games that don't cater to their style of problem solving and story resolution. But like any other form of activity or expression, the styles change, the rigid modes of older systems become obsolete, and the medium moves on, with or without the original audience.

I have enjoyed Puzzle Games, and as long as they keep making good ones, I'll keep playing. But meanwhile, I want to see what game devs can do with a solid, multifacetted plots, convincing environments and interactions, and lots of interactive items we can use to devise our own solutions to much more reasonable problems.

The only thing we ask in Adventure Games is that we streamline the overly complex control schemes of anything that doesn't operate strictly by point and click (though they should always have that functionality available for the impaired), and should have as little or no mandatory combat or atheltic gameplay. If you're going to include these things as playable features rather than triggered cutscenes, this too should be strictly optional.

And if you're going to integrate Puzzle Game logic into the story, make it fit the story, not the other way around, and sort out the difficulty level issue before you send innocent n00bs into the fray (most likely with their walkthroughs in hand, which I consider an automatic design flaw; if your audience needs a walkthrough, you haven't done your job as a storyteller).

However, some folks will always insist that these things are supposed to be extremely mentally challenging, so to those people I say: check these boxes for preferred puzzle types 1-9, and the preferred difficulty level (light, moderate, heavy). Timed puzzle is a separate option entirely.

When game devs sort out this particular problem, then you will have yourself a great storytelling medium that is open to everyone who still wants to play these games. Fewer dialogue clues for the Puzzle Gamers, fewer puzzles for the story people. And/or Action and combat for those who check those boxes as well.

Yes, I know the technical requirements of such a thing are easier said than done. I've done my homework. However, the time is coming when this won't seem like a pipe dream, and it won't be long, either. But you won't get your vote in if you refuse to have anything to do with the innovation of the medium. Hide behind your old game collections and the world will pass you by, with no more thought to your gameplay style than they do to those lovely people still playing graphical and text adventures with a text parser.

Okay, I've said my piece. Apologies to those who feel offended. No offense was intended. And to those who disagree with some or all of my points, you have that right, and I won't dispute your right to feel that way. Even though you're wrong.

[rtrooney]

I might have voted All of the Above if that had been an option. Although I'm not sure dialog really constitutes a puzzle. There are instances, such as in Still Life where dialog tells the player what to do, but that's more like an in-game hint than a puzzle.

Unfortunately, or at least it seems that way to me, most dialog performs a very small role in the whole scheme of puzzles. Example being the opeing scene of TLJ, with its endless exposition via dialog with the tree. Hidden in all that was one line that alluded to the fact that the tree needed water. Is that a good dialog puzzle or simply a tedious way to extend gameplay; a role mazes often play.

Depending on one's point of view, many adventure games, e.g., Myst, Shivers and their clones contain little or no dialog, and that which is there contribute to the story, but are not puzzles.

[Ariel Type]

1,2,3,4: Babel Fish Puzzle, Loom, Insult Sword Fighting, etc.
At the same time mazes are often more of "being lucky" thing, dialogs - "choose every possible phrase", inventory - "use one active object on one active hotspot". You can hardly call such primitive interection "a puzzle".
And Myst- or 7th Guest-style puzzles are puzzles for sure. Though usually they represent "Logic/Puzzle" genre, not "Adventure".

[Melanie68]

Originally Posted by rtrooney

I might have voted All of the Above if that had been an option. Although I'm not sure dialog really constitutes a puzzle. There are instances, such as in Still Life where dialog tells the player what to do, but that's more like an in-game hint than a puzzle.

Unfortunately, or at least it seems that way to me, most dialog performs a very small role in the whole scheme of puzzles. Example being the opeing scene of TLJ, with its endless exposition via dialog with the tree. Hidden in all that was one line that alluded to the fact that the tree needed water. Is that a good dialog puzzle or simply a tedious way to extend gameplay; a role mazes often play.

Depending on one's point of view, many adventure games, e.g., Myst, Shivers and their clones contain little or no dialog, and that which is there contribute to the story, but are not puzzles.

It's a multiple choice poll. You can click on more than one option. I did it that way instead of all the above.

[colpet]

@ Lee in Limbo
What attracted me to adventures in the first place was the mental challenge. It, along with the story defines the adventure. I'm not sure what you have when you take away that away, but it isn't an adventure in the classic sense. So we'll call it innovation, and move away from stimulating challenges for the sake of the story in hopes of attracting new gamers to the fold. You end up with a different product.
I really hate this dichotomy that AGers seem to have - the story people vs. the puzzle people. Adventures are not one or the other, but a combination of both. Innovation must include both, or the Adventure becomes something else.

[Lee in Limbo]

Originally Posted by colpet

@ Lee in Limbo
Adventures are not one or the other, but a combination of both. Innovation must include both, or the Adventure becomes something else.

I couldn't agree with you less. But who cares what I think?

[samIamsad]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

[samIamsad]Arrgh... That word! plpsodffewojgeoirrrrr...[/samIamsad]

Great games don't happen by shoe-horning your design into a rigid category made up by some magazine.

Still loving it.