[Intrepid Homoludens]

Clockwise from top left: Indigo Prophecy, Missing: Since January
(In Memoriam), 8, Façade. Clicking a pic will take you to either a
movie or the game's website (go to the gallery section of 8's
site for two movie demos).


I'm working on this article (well, the final part of a series), and I was poking through these kinds of games and started wondering what people thought of them, both gamers and developers.

If they are successful critically and even commercially, d'you think they would have a good influence on how adventure games are perceived? What do you think they bring to the table? Would they ignite interest in those other than hardcore adventurers, especially if they're strategically marketed, mediated, and advertised?

Is it worth exploring concepts that 'traditional' adventures don't explore - the internet as gameplay, wireless real life treasure hunts, 'rubberband theory' interactive story (story as puzzle), the concept of play and discovery challenges vs. linear puzzle solving, state-of-the-art artificial intelligence instead of sliders and mazes?

Can the adventure genre as we know it become more malleable because of these games?

Oh, and I very highly recommend viewing the movies while pondering on this.

[Fop]

Well, I think Internet based gameplay as in In Memoriam is pretty much a failed experiment due to the forever changing nature of the Internet.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

So you're saying that the way In Memoriam/Missing did internet based adventuring failed, but that that successful internest based adventuring is still possible, just don't do it the way they did it?

[Fop]

I don't really see how it could work. Maybe a fake Internet constructed inside the game (kind of like Gabrial Knight 3). The actual Internet isn't permanent enough to ensure the game is playable in the future.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I'm not sure if your view is valid enough, given the fact that internet is far more complex than that, the very reason it could be a very viable source for pervasive adventuring. IMO, that Missing did it in only one particular way doesn't necessarily mean other ways are not possible.

For example, an adventure game where your character's most valuable tool is a PDA, which she uses to look up information on clues. But instead of logging on to fake, pre-fab in-game websites, the PDA actually goes to Google, where hords of sites will give her information on, say, the symbolic meanings of the primitive sculptures on Easter Island, which she can then apply to a puzzle in-game. If one real-life site doesn't have info, another real-life site will. Also, your character can receive emails in your real life account in-game as well, and the game itself can manage all this. The PDA can simply notify your character when an email comes in. Like I said, it depends on how the game calibrates the internet's strengths and properties, taking into account its constantly shifting state.

[Martin Gantefoehr]

But instead of logging on to fake, pre-fab in-game websites, the PDA actually goes to Google, where hords of sites will give her information on, say, the symbolic meanings of the primitive sculptures on Easter Island, which she can then apply to a puzzle in-game. If one real-life site doesn't have info, another real-life site will.

Yep, That's a possibility, I think. Several people told me that they solved a puzzle in MOS (entering certain gas percentages for air composition) by simply looking the solution up with Google. They hadn't found the game's hint to the solution, and just worked around.

I'm not sure if just tossing a "real" browser into a game would be more fun, though. The problem of the internet is that it can be very disorienting, and a considerable amount of the "information" it has is wrong, incomplete, misleading, pointless, offensive, or illegal.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Martin Gantefoehr

I'm not sure if just tossing a "real" browser into a game would be more fun, though. The problem of the internet is that it can be very disorienting, and a considerable amount of the "information" it has is wrong, incomplete, misleading, pointless, offensive, or illegal.

Well, I personally wouldn't have a problem with it. That it can be disorienting could simply become a part of the puzzle. There could be an in-game hint system I could use where my character tells me, "Hmmm. That didn't work. Maybe if I type in this word..." - basically something that could nudge me in the right direction, and yet I would still have to work on getting the answers myself by homing in my search. A disclaimer would be nice too: If you can't handle the internet, don't even think of playing this game.

Oh, and I remember that Peter Molyneux's Black & White had a feature that allowed you to access your email in-game. Whenever you receive mail one of the little villagers under your jurisdiction would run to you and 'notify' you of it.

[crabapple]

The only one of these games I've played is In Memoriam.
I assume you're talking about the game's requiring you to use the Internet and not the game's arcade sequences.
I didn't like having to go browse the net for clues.
The sites that came up near the top were mostly sites with hints for the game.
The site the game wanted you to use to get the solution was often not near the top of Google's list, and sometimes not even on its first page of hits.
Searching for stuff on Google can be a real PITA.
I'd rather browse a fake net that's contained within the game.
Some people on dialup complained that some of the pages took so long to download that they made the game unplayable. Don't assume everyone is able to afford DSL or cable - or that they're even available in all areas.

I also didn't like how you need to create an email account for the game in order to play it. My email provider thought the messages from the game were viruses (they use Norton to filter viruses) and I had to turn off the virus filter at my ISP's site. (The emails were simple text messages, but I assume my ISP's virus detector looks for certain strings of characters and decides on that basis if something is a virus) In the future, my ISP may not allow you to turn off the filter, and there are probably some email providers that already do not allow this.


Facade looks like something that might appeal to people who are interested in Sims and date simulations, or maybe in the current state of AI. But not something I'd be interested in. In terms of adventure games, I think it would be sort of a gimmick to put something like that in. If it's not something that's integral to the gameplay and there's the matter of cost for extra features. How difficult would it be to create a believable AI for conversations? How much would it add to the game and how much would it cost to create? I don't think we'll see it used first in adventures because of the additional cost. We might see it in a Sims release or in a more action-oriented game that has a big budget - something like Deus Ex or Half Life.

I'm not clear on what 8 or "indigo Prophecy" will introduce. I'd have to play them to get a better idea.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by crabapple

The only one of these games I've played is In Memoriam.
I assume you're talking about the game's requiring you to use the Internet and not the game's arcade sequences.

Like I said, Missing did it in one particular way, ONE way of doing it. That doesn't mean other ways are not possible.

I also didn't like how you need to create an email account for the game in order to play it. My email provider thought the messages from the game were viruses (they use Norton to filter viruses) and I had to turn off the virus filter at my ISP's site. (The emails were simple text messages, but I assume my ISP's virus detector looks for certain strings of characters and decides on that basis if something is a virus) In the future, my ISP may not allow you to turn off the filter, and there are probably some email providers that already do not allow this.

You seem to think that your problem is a universal one. I played the demo and at least there I had no problems whatsoever with the emailing with my yahoo account. There are other possible ways of doing it, one of which is by officially registering the game online and giving them a valid email address and the gameplay specific email will be funneled through their system and re-sent to yours so that your account doesn't block them.

Another way is to set up a new email account specifically for this game, Yahoo or Hotmail or whatever else, that won't necessarily block the game's email.

Facade looks like something that might appeal to people who are interested in Sims and date simulations, or maybe in the current state of AI. But not something I'd be interested in.

Well then, YOU are not interested in it. Case closed for you.

BTW, I think you're quite inaccurate in comparing Facade with The Sims and similar games. Facade, for one thing, is very heavily story driven. The Sims, on the other hand, merely simulates a kind of doll house and sand box mechanic, there is no authored story at all and your goals in the game are determined by you, not by any existing narrative in the game.

In terms of adventure games, I think it would be sort of a gimmick to put something like that in. If it's not something that's integral to the gameplay and there's the matter of cost for extra features. How difficult would it be to create a believable AI for conversations? How much would it add to the game and how much would it cost to create? I don't think we'll see it used first in adventures because of the additional cost. We might see it in a Sims release or in a more action-oriented game that has a big budget - something like Deus Ex or Half Life.

Why don't you ask Marek that? Or read his preview on it to get his idea. According to him it's anything BUT a gimmick. You seem to have a pretty narrow view of such, but I do agree that realistically, given the state of the adventure genre as is, it would take awhile for developers to adapt and gamers to adapt to it.

An excerpt from Marek's preview:

Interaction with the characters is achieved through various means. Façade primarily uses a text parser, though it's not used as a command interface. Players can type words or sentences at any time during the game, either in response to a question or to bring up a subject. Trip and Grace will respond intelligently or just ignore you if you're not making sense to them. While not used as often, it's also possible to click on their bodies for physical communication. (I accidentally hugged Trip this way, causing a socially awkward situation.) Finally, the game takes into account your position in the room and your interactions with the objects in it. Some of the objects have a certain meaning to Trip and Grace's relationship and will trigger a new set of events

That does NOT mean it would be impossible to implement.

I'm not clear on what 8 or "indigo Prophecy" will introduce. I'd have to play them to get a better idea.

You should check out the games' sites and previews to get an idea.

[Fop]

A big part of the problem for me is that I like my puzzles to be closed systems. Mixing 'RL' Internet into it *detracts* from the experience rather than adding immersion. GK3 felt more immersive because I never had to separate myself from the game world.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

That's the difference, and it's your prerogative to prefer what you prefer. But aside from that, these ideas of moving beyond what we've been used to, thus what we expect, and what informs our preferences are part of what I'm interested in exploring.

[Fairygdmther]

Not trying to be obtuse here, but could you define your use of meta-adventure? It seems to be those games that are "outside of the box" yet I don't want to delineate when I'm not sure of your premise.

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: meta-
Variant(s): or met-
Function: prefix
Etymology: New Latin & Medieval Latin, from Latin or Greek; Latin, from Greek, among, with, after, from meta among, with, after; akin to Old English mid, mith with, Old High German mit
1 a : occurring later than or in succession to : after <metestrus> b : situated behind or beyond <metencephalon> <metacarpus> c : later or more highly organized or specialized form of <metaxylem>
2 : change : transformation
3 [metaphysics] : more comprehensive : transcending <metapsychology> -- used with the name of a discipline to designate a new but related discipline designed to deal critically with the original one <metamathematics>

Heh, sorry to sound mysterious. I guess what I mean is kinds of games that go beyond what we typically think the genre is capable of, or what we base our perceptions and preconceptions of it on, or accepted notions of, without it necessarily trying to become another genre altogether (whether aware of it or not) or even looking to be situated within any particular genre but still posses core attributes of the adventure game while having an epistemological dialogue with it.

[Fairygdmther]

I like the concept of transcending the usual definitions of adv games. As far as Missing (In Memoriam) - I also feel that some of the issues stated were correct, ie, sites that were harder to find, distraction from the game, etc. but I did like the premise of a search. As you say, other ways of solving those issues could be tried. There could be restricted access websites, allowed by a key in the game to avoid some of the issues, and sites like, say, Wikipedia referenced for others - ie, sites unlikely to change much over time.

There have pretty much always been those games that stretched the definitions, though, if in other ways. Is your article related to the way developers could expand their horizons and try some new ideas, yet still avoid the pitfalls of arcade sequences, killing sprees, timed trials, etc.?

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

There could be restricted access websites, allowed by a key in the game to avoid some of the issues, and sites like, say, Wikipedia referenced for others - ie, sites unlikely to change much over time.

I think it's even possible for actual key words during in-game dialogue to be hyperlinks unto themselves! That would add yet another level of 'meta-interactivity' to the gameplay experience. This is already being used by Trillian, where in the chat window some words actually are hyperlinks to their Wikipedia definitions. Why not import that into an adventure game?

There have pretty much always been those games that stretched the definitions, though, if in other ways. Is your article related to the way developers could expand their horizons and try some new ideas, yet still avoid the pitfalls of arcade sequences, killing sprees, timed trials, etc.?

Yeah, exactly. Never in my mind do typical feature elements from other genres (that you mention above) enter the picture. I was instead thinking of how technology and ideas could inform our experiences in games from non-conventional sources.

[Fairygdmther]

Wouldn't it be fun to have a chat window in the game with AI, where you could ask questions of others, and get answers to your questions as if you were really in a chat room? And even get dumb answers like you would in a chat room? Have the AI ask you if you meant "such and such", to clarify what answer you wanted by picking key words? And answering funny answers when it had no clue what you wanted? It could be the premise of a conference or consult like an online meeting. You know, like assigning tasks and reporting back - something like Missing tried to do, but in realtime during the game?

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Well hey, why not?! Even when it's kept simple as A.I. technology will allow? It's in these kinds of ways that a game could simply surprise you, and not so much for its own sake, but as an integral part of gameplay.

"Man, this puzzle's hard."

"Need help?"

"Can you help me?"

"What am I, a walkthrough?"

"I didn't say that."

"Fine. Just go Google it and see what you find."

"What word should I type in?"

"I dunno. Try Machu Picchu. That's all I'll tell you for now."

[Fairygdmther]

Yes, that would be fun and different! And you just did that off the top of your head! We need more creativity! Write your article brilliantly, my friend!

FGM

[TheTwelve]

This "meta-adventure" concept is kind of hard to define. You should definitely work up a solid definition for your article. If it's games that are incorporating the growing internet technology into their gameplay, then you've got some good stuff to talk about. Like the stuff in this thread.

If "meta-adventure" simply means, as the prefix implies, the next evolution of adventure games, you've got a pretty broad topic on your hands. Every adventure game developer out there has a different idea of where the genre should be headed...

Personally, I think that new technology can add fantastic new levels of fun to the adventure genre as long as the technology is applied to the game in a way that enhances game play and not just for the sake of incorporating new technology.

For example, a developer might think that it would be cool if a player had to go on to the real internet and hunt for some piece of vital information. But the developer's first priority needs to be fun. Is it fun to go online and do a google search? I, personally, do that everyday and don't need a game to make me do it. The developer also needs to make sure that the information is available on the web and won't be on page 300 of my search. Finally, the developer needs to make sure that this search isn't breaking my gameworld immersion. If I'm a detective in the game and need to find something on the internet, fine. As long as I don't have to quit the game, open up Firefox, search, reboot the game... etc. Also, any kind of internet connection thing like this would be totally out of place in a game that wasn't set in modern day earth.

All of these examples apply adequately to using any type of new technology to a "meta" game. Fun is key. Technology only supports fun.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by FGM

Yes, that would be fun and different! And you just did that off the top of your head! We need more creativity! Write your article brilliantly, my friend!

Have you explored the 8 website yet? This, among other savoury morsels, intrigued me:

If “8” is non-linear and it does not use any language, how can it be narrative?

We are trying to develop a form of story telling that is suitable for non-linear media. Throughout the game world, the player will see scenes and dreams that each tell a small part of many different stories. These stories do not necassarily form one big whole as we have also included the contradictions between the different versions of the fairy tale. It will be up to the player to make connections between these narrative elements and make some poetic sense of it all.

The architecture of the narrative seems to depend on our innate ability to mingle found story fragments with each other to create some kind of narrative 'tapestry', one that isn't necessarily authored in stone but is as organically stitched together as our imaginations will allow.