[Intrepid Homoludens]

"Let me do all the 'dirty' work for you" - Beyond Good & Evil, Silent Hill 2, Knights Of
The Old Republic. Click the pics for large version.

LOL!! I think it would be a funny thing for us 'non-purists' non-traditionalists to sort of 'adopt' some of the 'purists' traditionalists and have them sit down with us (with a nice hot pizza, wine and juice ) to have them vicariously play a game like Beyond Good & Evil, ICO, Silent Hill, and Knights Of The Old Republic. By vicarious I mean that, since these games involve action (and most 'purists' traditionalists hate action, thus never really play them), we would be the ones playing them with the controls while you guys tell us exactly what you want us to do, where to go, who to talk to, and how to solve the puzzles and quests.

Sounds silly, yes, but it would be nice to show you how other games beyond the adventure have incorporated all the elements adventure games have always worked with, just to compare. IMO, these games have matched, and often surpassed, recent adventures in how they are incorporated. Just simply take out the action requisites and a few other things. In many instances the puzzles seem to emerge from the story instead of being artificially dropped into it. Also, the gameworlds tend to be very, VERY deep. I mean, in Knights Of The Old Republic, for example, each and every inventory item (weapons, chemicals, clothing, etc.) has its own little story and you can spend an hour in the game just reading all about them. And every single nonplayable character has something to say, even the droids. And the sidequests have this impressive soap opera drama about them, mini-stories, if you so choose to accept the quest.

You just may find that some of the dynamics, quality - the 'magic' - that you've been missing from the golden days of Lucas Arts and Sierra have made their way into these games.

Well, if anything, there's always the pizza and wine.

[Antoinetta]

"LOL!! I think it would be a funny thing for us 'non-purists' to sort of 'adopt' some of the 'purists' and have them sit down with us (with a nice hot pizza, wine and juice ) to vicariously have them play a game like Beyond Good & Evil, ICO, Silent Hill, and Knights Of The Old Republic. By vicarious I mean that, since these games involve action (and most 'purists' hate action, thus never really play them), we would be the ones playing them with the controls while you purists tell us exactly what you want us to do, where to go, who to talk to, and how to solve the puzzles and quests.

Sounds silly, yes, but...." Posted by Trep

Actually, it sounds like a hell of a fun idea; the only problem would be the logistics of getting some of us together.

Antoinetta

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Antoinetta

Actually, it sounds like a hell of a fun idea; the only problem would be the logistics of getting some of us together.

Yeah, I know. I'd love to have you play KoTOR with me, even if you may think the puzzles are too easy. Still they're there. And we would both get lost for HOURS just exploring all the worlds and talking to EVERYONE! I'll take you kath hound hunting on Dantooine, we can help Bastila with her family problems, meet the Sand People on Tatooine, explore the very bottom of Kashyyk's primeval forest with its thousand foot high trees, even have Carth or Juhani fall in love with us.

[squarejawhero]

Some people are too purist to even consider it.

Truth is some are afraid that people like us might be right and they'd be forced to bite their own tongue when confronted with games from other genres that surpass this one in terms of narrative, design and richness of content. Let ALONE that a 3D title that encompasses a lot of design elements can work.

[Kolorabi]

Ofcouse the thing, which some of us "purists" say over and over again, but which is always ignored (at least by some), is that most of us play these games as well. It's not like we live inside our little pure-adventure shell and are afraid to see what the outside world has to offer, no matter how much people might like to think that. Just FYI, you know.

(edit: and most of us, I think, look forward to games like Dreamfall and Fahrenheit, it's just that we don't agree that the genre as a whole needs to have more action in it)

[squarejawhero]

I don't want to use the word "purist" as a derogatory term. It just comes out that way! Besides, if you do play games from other genres, you can see where this one is lagging behind. Shockingly, it's often in the places where this genre's supposed to be racing ahead. When some shooters have better realised gameworlds (no matter how it's presented) and detailed backstories that encompass so much, you have to wonder what's going on.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Kolorabi

...it's just that we don't agree that the genre as a whole needs to have more action in it

Whoah, hold on there. I hope you weren't refering in part to me. I WANT pure adventure games to keep coming, and I love those myself. But remember what we 'progressives' keep saying over and over: we also want those pure adventures to have quality, originality, refinement, and a sense of freshness as well. That's all we ask.

[Kolorabi]

Originally Posted by The Hero

I don't want to use the word "purist" as a derogatory term. It just comes out that way! Besides, if you do play games from other genres, you can see where this one is lagging behind. Shockingly, it's often in the places where this genre's supposed to be racing ahead. When some shooters have better realised gameworlds (no matter how it's presented) and detailed backstories that encompass so much, you have to wonder what's going on.

Yes, the genre has loads of problems and areas where it can improve. Very few are arguing otherwise. But adding action will not solve anything. Instead we need to look at the areas where most adventure games today fall flat on their face, and come up with ideas on how to improve those things.

I mean, we all know we want meaningful error messages (having the games tell us why something don't work instead of just telling us it don't work). Yet very few game designers bother with that. Why?

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Whoah, hold on there. I hope you weren't refering in part to me. I WANT pure adventure games to keep coming, and I love those myself. But remember what we 'progressives' keep saying over and over: we also want those pure adventures to have quality, originality, refinement, and a sense of freshness as well. That's all we ask.

Um, and we don't? It seems that your image of your "opponents" in these discussions isn't very accurate...

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Yeah, I know. I'd love to have you play KoTOR with me, even if you may think the puzzles are too easy.

If you guys are looking for an adventury rpg that has some puzzles in it, have a look at Arx Fatalis.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by squarejawhero

When some shooters have better realised gameworlds (no matter how it's presented) and detailed backstories that encompass so much, you have to wonder what's going on.

Yeah, I agree.

Oh, and for the record, let's recount our own experiences from non-adventure games that truly touched us and that could very easily have come from, or could easily slip into, an adventure game. Please excuse the mild spoiler below, it won't ruin it for you should you decide to play the game.

I'm currently on my second run in Knights Of The Old Republic. As it is an RPG, I've assemblied my necessary coterie of teammates. The deeper I get into the main story, the more is revealed about my teammates, to the point where they become companions, then friends, and possibly even lovers. And the narrative structure is so organic that you WILL miss narrative points. For example, during my first time playing my teammates and I went to the planet of Koribaan (where the evil Sith train students). I decided to take Carth (a Republic soldier and war hero) and Juhani (a Jedi) with me. It was there that we discovered that a significant part of Carth's past was revealed by running into a certain character, and that opened up a little story on its own and an optional side quest. Well, now that I'm on my second run of the game, this time I brought Juhani and Mission (a young T'wilek female rogue) with me. Because I wanted to still help Carth, I began to look for that key character for him, but I could not find them at all. So I went back and traded Mission for Carth and looked again, but they still weren't there. What happened? The narrative seems to shift here and there depending on what you do, where you go, and who you bring with you. And I feel like some kind of mom/therapist taking care of my companions for a great cause. I love that!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Uh HUH! Uh HUH! Uh HUH! Uh HUH!

Oh, sorry. Knights Of The Old Republic again:

***** still likes me!! I was afraid that, based on some choices I had made, he wouldn't be interested in me anymore like the first time I played the game. He flirted with me again, something about wanting to lay me on his lap and spank me. I chose the "Is that a promise?" response.

Poor ******, she's telling me her brutal past (like in my first play-through), but I can't bring myself to want to go.....you know, further with her.

Sheesh!! Why can't an adventure game be like this?!!

This is what I meant in terms of how the certain 'adventure-ish' things have crept into other games.

[EasilyConfused]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Yeah, I know. I'd love to have you play KoTOR with me, even if you may think the puzzles are too easy. Still they're there. And we would both get lost for HOURS just exploring all the worlds and talking to EVERYONE! I'll take you kath hound hunting on Dantooine, we can help Bastila with her family problems, meet the Sand People on Tatooine, explore the very bottom of Kashyyk's primeval forest with its thousand foot high trees, even have Carth or Juhani fall in love with us.

Yes, and I'd love for some of the puzzles to get more difficult!! With workarounds for people who just can't deal! Like . . .

Spoiler:

When you can either do an (admitttedly really easy) math problem to solve a computer glitch that's going to kill someone you need alive, which you would have to do in an AG . . . or you can have your super-duper computer genius droid do it, except it'll cost you a few pieces of equipment you know you might need down the road.

KOTOR babies you and doesn't make the choices between alternatives hard enough, except perhaps at the beginning, but another game could . . .

[remixor]

My Beyond Good and Evil experience was pretty much three solid days of my friend and I playing, trading the controller back and forth every once in a while. We're both longtime adventure fans, and it was an absolute blast. I've always maintained that adventure games, and games with an adventure feel or pace, are great buddy games.

I did the same with Curse of Monkey Island, Shadow of Destiny, The Last Express, and Blade Runner, in fact all with different people. Some of them were adventure gamers, some had literally never played an adventure, but they all had lots of fun.