[Macflyer]

New to the forums. Hi to everyone.

I registered for two reasons: I re-discovered my love for adventure gaming. I officially proclaim I hate Sierra now.

What happened, you might ask?

Historical background:

I started with computers around 1988. Not too late to come across many marvels of home computer gaming history but for some reason it took me until 1990 to get hold of my first Sierra games: PQ1 and later LSL 1.

I enjoyed them, despite language barrier, very much. Thought they were great games. I didn't mind that I couldn't achieve full high score ever. At times, I got stuck but somehow found a solution.

I did not get hold of any other Sierra games then but was fully aware of their catalogue. For some reason, it never happened.

Naturally, I had a go at Maniac Mansion, Zac, Monkey Island.

Back to present day. Somehow the adventure gaming bug bit me this week and I discovered GOG.com and their offerings.

Purchased the complete PQ collection among other stuff.

To revamp the childhood I played through PQ1 AGI once more and even found out more stuff than back then (less of a language barrier nowadays I guess) but still I missed out some points. Nevertheless, I enjoyed the ride and was set to continue the story with PQ2.

And boy, did the game flow nicely. I progressed rapidly, no need for hints, rich atmosphere. I could draw from real life experience and pure logic and thought this game is it. Besides, I really like the blocky EGA looks and prefer it over the VGA remakes for their plain looks. VGA always looks washed out.

I never thought of the parser being a major problem or dealbreaker per se once you know the flaws Sierra's parser contained and how to work around. Until now.

So, while I was praising myself for really getting a lot out of the game, I ran into two problems that all accumulated to my outburst of hate I have to spill over the late Sierra studios, or precisely over the PQ2 designers.

1) lack of hints through description: I cannot really elaborate on this to not spoil the experience for others but so much can be said: if you got blocky EGA plus a limited parser then at least give me more detailed descriptions of what I I am *remotely* supposed to see or look out for.

It just doesn't make sense and ain't fun if a couple of pixel difference between my character standing and not seeing anything significant versus Sierra's scripting for more detailed description make you get stuck.

Yes, the dreaded dead ends I never thought Sierra games really suffered from until now. I mean, if I look under a bed from one side, why shouldn't I be able to see an object of reasonable size that is laying somewhere under the bed? Why would I, without any further hint from the script, go to the other side of the same bed to trying to do the same when the game has told me already that "You see nothing special", or "You can't do this right now". Even if I were to go to the other side to pick it up the game could at least have told me that I see something but cannot reach it.

In my mind I did the right action at the right time at the right place but for the evil in Sierra's script it didn't help me at all.

And when you happen to do the right stuff, like going into the bathroom at a crime scene, but there is no new screen to give you a graphical presentation (after all, it claims to be a graphics adventure; that means, I do not need to think in text adventure terms when I come up with my instructions to get the game doing something useful), I expect a more detailed description upon looking around. Not just merely stating that this is a bathroom with a shower, a sink, and a toilet. Especially, if the WHOLE game from here on depends on this one scene that is NOT graphically presented in a GRAPHICS adventure game.

Or, for starters, if I miss the clue I'm already penalized by not achieving full points. But at least script a solution for this problem (my partner could have found the so important clue) so that I do not need to start over or restore way before. Everything I did from here on was for nothing but I found out that I'm in a dead end way later. This might reflect the risk of real police work but takes away from a game that tries to entertain.

2) parser and description problems:

basically what I said above including the following example (changing it a bit for no spoilers). When the script tells me that I can see the "corner of a paper sticking out" and I type "get paper" but the game responds " you can't get that right now". What do I do? reparsing or trying something different? Right, knowing that there's something important I try to come up with a different approach by "opening the drawer" in order to get the paper. But what if the "corner of the paper" never was meant to be a sheet of paper, a "paper" in parser English? Then, of course, I was never meant to be able to pick up a "paper" in that scene precisely but rather "a corner of a paper". If I had typed "get corner" all would have been good for the script and the game's progress.

But, since I decided to do something different in order to get what was there in my mind but in game logic factually wasn't, I lost. When I tried to "open the drawer" (i changed this event for no spoilers but people familiar with PQ2 will know) the game progressed unexpectedly but never gave me the chance to look at or pick up what it described to me earlier and it would have been decisive as well for atmosphere as for progress. Another clue gone down the drain.

So, rant over. For now, I just cannot go back to the game and start earlier. I will have to leave it for now and come back in a couple months or so. Of course, I want to know how it unfolds but I hope you guys can understand my pain and anger.

I don't want to get hints from anywhere since it spoils the fun. But I doubt I ever would have gone back to those scenes I described remotely to see if I had missed something. I tried to do everything that was required and the parser led me to believe that my actions were the right thing to do but just did not lead to anything new.

Then, reading in a walkthrough what I missed out although it reflected my ideas and actions with other words, was a huge let down. And in my opinion, if not pure evil by the designers, a big and extreme flaw. But with the limitation of technology, RAM size, disk size and all that, the unexcusable sin is to not have provided a safe alternative for me getting the information, like I said by my partner, etc.

Rant over. Will be doing KQ3 for the first time ever the next days. Let's see how that goes. Finished KQ1 and KQ2 and found them actually quite charming. The graphics/description/parser problem is present at times but hasn't led to any serious dead end like in PQ2.

[GarageGothic]

Pain and anger, really? It's just a game, you know, not some digital torture device designed to spread human suffering.

I have quite fond memories of PQ2 myself. In fact it was the first adventure game I completed without help - and it taught me the word "vial" . One of the things I like about PQ2 is actually how few dead ends it has compared to other early Sierra games (except for adjusting your gun sights, that's very important!). There's tons of entirely optional tasks, and you can miss a lot of stuff without halting the plot as far as I remember - e.g. you can skip the whole diving segment. So I'm surprised that you find it so frustrating, although I do remember some parts being tricky (searching the bathroom at the motel isn't terribly intuitive, I agree - they should have done a close-up like when you search cars).

But yeah, it does sound like you need a break for the game. I hope you'll be able to stay in a more positive mindset when you return to it with a fresh perspective.

[Macflyer]

Originally Posted by GarageGothic

Pain and anger, really? It's just a game, you know, not some digital torture device designed to spread human suffering.

I have quite fond memories of PQ2 myself. In fact it was the first adventure game I completed without help - and it taught me the word "vial" . One of the things I like about PQ2 is actually how few dead ends it has compared to other early Sierra games (except for adjusting your gun sights, that's very important!). There's tons of entirely optional tasks, and you can miss a lot of stuff without halting the plot as far as I remember - e.g. you can skip the whole diving segment. So I'm surprised that you find it so frustrating, although I do remember some parts being tricky (searching the bathroom at the motel isn't terribly intuitive, I agree - they should have done a close-up like when you search cars).

But yeah, it does sound like you need a break for the game. I hope you'll be able to stay in a more positive mindset when you return to it with a fresh perspective.

Yeah, it's just a game; an old one as well. BUT, I got into it; I did well; and then, like described, I got stuck. And, while I will survive it, it just wasn't fun to find out where the problem was. I'm not going so far to say I won't be buying anything Sierra anymore ;-) Just needed to vent. Nothing serious.

Btw: I enjoyed the diving scene. Indeed, one can get past this even without diving but finding the license in the wallet last minute was one of the funnier achievements.

Still, I got a point

[Gabe]

Yeah you got a point,look for psychological consultant.

[Collector]

It's your loss, but what ever floats your boat.

[skurken]

Well, It's probably a matter of taste but most Sierra games drive me bonkers. I can most definitely relate to the original poster and I don´t think he needs any psychological counseling

[Tiocfaidh]

I remember playing with a walkthrough most of the time when I got stuck, because my knowledge of the English language was very basic back then.

I loved the atmosphere, but often thought "how should I have come up with THAT solution" from time to time.

I haven´t played it myself but from watching playthrough videos on youtube I´ll suggest that you reconsider playing KQ3 (at least the original).
Seems to be a veeery frustating game.
Timed sequences, tons of spells etc.

But pick up PQ2 again after some time.
It´s worth the effort

[Macflyer]

Good morning community, what a beautiful day, sunshine, the birds are chirping......perfect day to play some more

@Gabe: oh yes, you are so right. After re-reading my post, how could I say something so childish, so immature about a game. I am in deep need for a shrink to cure my, what seems, lack of control about emotions and reality distortion. But then, I did not kill my mouse or other equipment as a result of my inability to just sit back and relax and say: "It's just a game".

@collector: well, look. Deep inside I know I'm going to give it another shot to see how the story unfolds. But right now, I couldn't continue without the *fear* (oh my gosh, I'm really considering a shrink) that I'm most likely to run into a similar scripting/parser/description problem that will drive me nuts. So, best is to leave the game alone for a while, then come back.

@skurken: hey, can we be friends? We could seek psychological help together

@Tiocfaidh: "how should I have come up with THAT solution" exactly, this is what I would say if I were mentally stable and normal. Seriously, I don't want to play the bad boy but I really think it's a good game that with a little more of polish could have been so much better by just avoiding such dead ends. I think, it's a flaw in game design and if made today, Sierra would have released a patch by now.

@all: the first folks who welcome me to the forums win a virtual cookie.

[Trumgottist]

Welcome, Marty! (George?)

Cookie?

I've avoided most Sierra games for those reasons. (Have played Gabriel Knight 1 & 2, and King's Quest 7, but that's it. What I've heard about PQ and SQ doesn't sound like fun to me.)

[Macflyer]

Originally Posted by Trumgottist

Welcome, Marty! (George?)

Cookie?

I've avoided most Sierra games for those reasons. (Have played Gabriel Knight 1 & 2, and King's Quest 7, but that's it. What I've heard about PQ and SQ doesn't sound like fun to me.)

Chocolate?

They are great games. BUT, as I said......frustrating for the wrong reasons.

[sierramindy]

Hi Macflyer,
I quite enjoyed reading your rant and thought it was okay since it dealt with your personal feelings about your frustrations with certain games. Actually, I believe it was a pychologically healthy thing to do, so no, you don't need a shrink. I've been there with every one of your rants in many games over many years. I consider them all part of playing adventure games, although I'm fairly sure that FPS and RPG players also rant at times. Anyway, I just want to add that I played PQ 2 back in the very early days and I recall liking it at the time, but all I remember now is: "Wait for me, Sonny" whenever he got in the car. Makes me smile even now!

[Macflyer]

Originally Posted by sierramindy

Hi Macflyer,
I quite enjoyed reading your rant and thought it was okay since it dealt with your personal feelings about your frustrations with certain games. Actually, I believe it was a pychologically healthy thing to do, so no, you don't need a shrink. I've been there with every one of your rants in many games over many years. I consider them all part of playing adventure games, although I'm fairly sure that FPS and RPG players also rant at times. Anyway, I just want to add that I played PQ 2 back in the very early days and I recall liking it at the time, but all I remember now is: "Wait for me, Sonny" whenever he got in the car. Makes me smile even now!

@Sierramindy: yes, getting stuck, getting frustrated is all part of the experience and I don't mind to sit out a situation I cannot get past, going back, and see what I can achieve on another day. But in my PQ2 case there was no chance of getting the clues together past that point and the dead end revealed itself way too late.

Why don't you give PQ2 another try? I had tons of fun with PQ1 when revisiting.

[Valdemar]

Hehe..

[sierramindy]

Hi Macflyer,
Too much time has passed for me to go back to those old days. Turns out that replaying sort of ruins my memory of the game. I seem to edit out the frustrations and only recall the fun parts. So I would rather keep my memories intact, and play today's games.