[stepurhan]

Originally Posted by TopCat

Please explain to me how is Portal an adventure game. Portal is an action puzzler.

Please explain to me why you think it's not an adventure game. I'm not saying that the site definition is perfect. I'm saying that, given that definition, Portal fits. Listing a load of games and saying what genres you think they belong in doesn't give me any more idea of what you think an adventure game is. If you're going to tell other people to stop calling certain games adventures you need a more compelling argument than just that you say they aren't.

To take an example from your list, having played Myst, I'd be inclined to say that would fit your definition of puzzle game. A lot of the challenges in Myst are highly abstract, stand-alone enigmas. How is the rocket maze any different from the puzzles offered by the Layton games? Why is trying to navigate a rocket in a series of underground pasages any different from puzzles like trying to cross a frozen lake in the Layton games?

[Kurufinwe]

Anyone who calls Portal an action-anything clearly hasn't played it.

[TopCat]

@Kurufinwe - I've played the game, thank you very much. I say it's an action game and most importantly Valve says it's an action game. Now, I think the developers know what genre their game belongs to, right ?!?!

@stepurhan - ok. I'll explain. What we are talking about here is classic point & click adventure games. 1st person or 3rd person - it matters not. The point is - Portal is a first person action puzzler with physics based puzzles. How does that make it an adventure game ?

Also - I was talking about Myst as a series - Yes, there are some illogical puzzles and all, but if you read all the stuff, if you read the books and learn about the lore then the Myst games are way more than just puzzle games.

And no - I do not THINK the games I listed belong to those genres. I am sure. Not only because I know the definition of the certain genre ( and have played numerous games that belong to those genres ) but also because the games' developers specify them as such.

I am not trying to argue with you all, OK ?

Peace!

[UPtimist]

Originally Posted by Kurufinwe

Anyone who calls Portal an action-anything clearly hasn't played it.

It's got action, it's just silly to deny it. Sure, it's puzzle-oriented acton but it's still action nevertheless.

(Edit): As clearly stated above also...

Originally Posted by TopCat

Portal is a first person action puzzler with physics based puzzles. How does that make it an adventure game ?

Well, the definition of an adventure game is very vague, and often one of the only points is a heavy emphasis on puzzles that you need to solve to proceed.

But why does it have to be so black-and-white anyways? It's and action-adventure-puzzle-whatever game. It's Portal. That's that.

[diego]

No argue, i think it's a very healthy discussion, but as is always with genre definitions - there are different opinions on what is what.

Originally Posted by Ascovel

Now, whether someone considers puzzle games a sub-genre of adventure games or not, is their personal opinion and personal genre definition.

again, it's a touchy matter since all depends on how the game works - Tetris is a puzzle game but surely it's not an adventure, while 7th Guest can be easily described as an adventure/puzzle

Originally Posted by stepurhan

I'm saying that, given that definition, Portal fits.

yes, but only because adventure game definitions, or any genre definition is wide and full of "plotholes" unless you're writing a Consitution out of the definition (and then, you'll likely to leave "open space" for "intruders")

Looking at these 3 random definitions:

...my definition of an adventure game is really an interactive story set with puzzles and obstacles to solve and worlds to explore

- Roberta Williams

An adventure game is a video game in which the player assumes the role of protagonist in an interactive story driven by exploration and puzzle-solving instead of physical challenge.

- Wikipedia

Adventure games are about stories, exploring worlds and solving puzzles.

- Adventure Gamers

They all have 3 things in common: something about the story, puzzles and exploration. It's far too little (or too much) to exclude games we're debating about. It could be rather how much these aspects play a critical role in a particular game.



This is Pitfall from 1995. (one of my favourite games, btw) It's got story, even puzzles and it sure has a world to explore. It's just that game is not in particular driven by these things - the biggest percentage of the game mechanics fall to jumping and shooting which automatically defines it as an action/platformer.

But then, we would have to "measure" each game to conclude how important in it's gameplay these adventure game elements are, which is again too complicated and left for personal opinions.

[Kurufinwe]

Originally Posted by UPtimist

It's got action, it's just silly to deny it. Sure, it's puzzle-oriented acton but it's still action nevertheless.

I'm sorry, I just disagree with the idead that it's an action game. What action elements do you have in the Portal games? One timed puzzle in each (the boss fight), where you have plenty of time to do what you want to do. And some sequences where you have to perform a certain action with the right timing, but:
1) those are few and far between (and almost absent from the solo mode in the second game)
2) it's never a long sequence of actions, usually just one action that you have to perform at the right time (e.g. shooting a portal while in mid-air)
3) you have at least a couple of seconds to perform said action
4) reflexes do not need to be combined with accuracy, i.e. if you have to shoot a portal in mid-air, you just shoot in the general direction of where you want to put it and it will find a way to land right where it should
5) most of the time, there's no penalty for failing, you can just redo it as many times as you want.

Unless I'm really misremembering, that's all there is in terms of action elements. As diego says above, it's the main gameplay elements that define a game's genre. So I'd say there are definitely a few mild action elements in Portal, but if Portal is an action game (or even an action-adventure of action-puzzle hybrid) because of those, then so is Space Quest IV.

[3rdFloor]

And here I thought this thread was about Gray Matter sales.

[rambler]

The portal genre definition is funny. In other sites/forums that aren't adventure focused I have seen many arguments about portal being a FPS or a puzzle game, adventure rarely comes into play (becuase the main mechanic in portal is shooting in first person, the only difference is you aren't killing things).

I would say fairly confidently that Portal is a First Person Puzzle game.

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by diego

Tetris is a puzzle game but surely it's not an adventure, while 7th Guest can be easily described as an adventure/puzzle

This reminds me of a certain cool little article I once read titled Why Tetris isn't a Puzzle Game.

[diego]

If you set Tetris to a ridiculously slow speed, then "speed" or "arcade part" are less important and is more about thinking where a particular piece should be placed, which is still a puzzle.

But Tetris was just an example, i hope you got what i mean - Tetris story or world exploration are less important than those things are in games we can describe as an adventure/puzzle

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by diego

Looking at these 3 random definitions:

- Roberta Williams

- Wikipedia

- Adventure Gamers

They all have 3 things in common: something about the story, puzzles and exploration. It's far too little (or too much) to exclude games we're debating about. It could be rather how much these aspects play a critical role in a particular game.

If we go by Jackal's assessment that it's a matter of degrees we could state that L.A. Noire is categorically an adventure game, but not a traditional point-&-click one. If you're gonna go the route that TopCat chooses to go and insist that adventure games are by your definition point-&-click, then you'd be excluding a game like Grim Fandango where you directly control the character, or Dreamfall where there are some action sequences and direct control but tons of challenges where you use your brain, as well as Portal and Portal 2, where you almost exclusively do puzzle work BUT there is still a strong story element, characterization (GLaDOS, Wheatly, etc.), and exploration.

I think the idea of requiring a game to have point-&-click to qualify as an adventure game is pretty dumb and inaccurate. Point-&-click is a mere detail, a mechanic, and doesn't address the essence of what the game is about. I'm thinking that one of the most important things an adventure features is that most of the gameplay takes place in your brain - that is, puzzles or challenges demanding that you THINK your way out.

Originally Posted by rambler

The portal genre definition is funny. In other sites/forums that aren't adventure focused I have seen many arguments about portal being a FPS or a puzzle game, adventure rarely comes into play (becuase the main mechanic in portal is shooting in first person, the only difference is you aren't killing things).

Actually you're just making holes in the walls. You're not shooting and trying to kill anyone. That hole making is a critical element, a tool, of solving your way out of each room (much like using items in your inventory), so it's more in line with puzzle work than killing to survive or earn a high score. So it does make sense when you state...

I would say fairly confidently that Portal is a First Person Puzzle game.

It's more of a First Person Adventure Game. That's because there's a strong story and exploration and discovery.

[diego]

But i've never mentioned or hinted at point&click, nor these quoted definitions mention it. Point-and-click is just a way the game is played, not what the game is about (although, you CAN usually conclude that it's about graphic adventure games).

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by diego

But Tetris was just an example, i hope you got what i mean - Tetris story or world exploration are less important than those things are in games we can describe as an adventure/puzzle

Yeah, I got what you meant. I just couldn't resist bringing up that article which also deals with genre definitions.

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

It's more of a First Person Adventure Game. That's because there's a strong story and exploration and discovery.

Your conclusion here explains why I believe that the puzzles' nature should factor into whether a game is considered an adventure game or just a puzzle game with a storyline.

To me these are 2 separate types of games that play differently. Portal doesn't play like an adventure game at all - it doesn't have even one adventure game like puzzle, only pure logic based ones.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Ascovel

To me these are 2 separate types of games that play differently. Portal doesn't play like an adventure game at all - it doesn't have even one adventure game like puzzle.

LOL, now you're getting really anal.

I say that Portal and Portal 2 don't play like TYPICAL, TRADITIONAL adventure games. But that shouldn't disqualify them from still being considered an adventure game categorically and essentially.

So then, what's YOUR definition of what an adventure game puzzle is supposed to be? More importantly, explain that definition and where you got it from. Does it involve an inventory? Hunting for hotspots? Because those are mere details, ultimately superficial in terms of the ESSENCE of what adventure games can be.

You're trying to solve your way out of a situation in an adventure game, where does most of the gameplay take place? In your brain, yes? Whether you're figuring out what to do with that rubber ducky and rope, or where to shoot that hole in the wall to create a way to reach the weighted cube that can press the button that opens the door out of the room, aren't you still trying to solve something and you're doing it in your head?

[Ascovel]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

So then, what's YOUR definition of what an adventure game puzzle is supposed to be?

Here it is:

puzzles which solutions are not based solely on conscious data analysis and step-by-step logic, but which key aspect is the player noticing/finding non-obvious and unexpected connections between seemingly unrelated game world elements.

That's how I see a typical adventure game puzzle.

Now, in a pure puzzle game the game offers the list of its rules directly to the player (usually all laid down in a tutorial, no cryptic hints). Once the player is presented with an obstacle to overcome, he doesn't need to start going around looking for hidden clues and interact with the game world to discover how to overcome a challenge. He can simply sit down in front of the computer use logical deduction with the known premises and then beat the obstacle on first attempt using the correct sequence of in-game actions that he this way deduced. It's basically just a bunch of mathematical equations to solve.

In case of Portal there's of course also the agility element involved.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

[QUOTE=Ascovel;584692]Here it is:

puzzles which solutions are not based solely on conscious data analysis and step-by-step logic, but which key aspect is the player noticing/finding non-obvious and unexpected connections between seemingly unrelated game world elements.

Where did you get that definition and how much weight does it hold in relation to authoritative sites like AG, Just Adventure+, and other sites that feature adventure games? If you ran your own adventure game site it would surely determine which titles you deem suitable for inclusion and reviewing.

That's how I see a typical adventure game puzzle.

A typical adventure game puzzle. So does that mean that there are games out there that are atypical yet can still be categorically considered adventure games? If not, then why does this site include games like Portal, Heavy Rain, and L.A. Noire? Would AG's criteria hold the same weight as yours?

[Arial Type]

Originally Posted by diego

Tetris story or world exploration are less important than those things are in games we can describe as an adventure/puzzle

Obviosly you don't know the story behind Tetris. It was a Gorbachev project, and it was aimed at America (that's why it slipped abroad so easily). It has a cipher message about Perestroika followed by revolution. Those pieces are fragments of the Moscow Kremlin wall. And the word 'Tetris' in Russian is an anagram of 'new country'. Those disappearing blocks were ment to be an effect of propaganda on peoples mind. Every new speed means the death of another former leader of the Communist Party. That's why if you get four lines of red pieces deleted at a time, you'll see a quick image of his chopped head. And if you manage to get a rough image of a tank at 19:87, you'll see a movie of people storming the White House.
There were other secrets that led to deeper story which I'm not aware of.

[giga]

Can we please rename this thread?

[orient]

In regards to Gray Matter sales, if the 13,000 predicted by VGChartz (which is probably an estimate based on copies shipped to retailers) is even remotely close, then things don't look so good.

Even if you double it to compensate for the (assumed) lack of online retail numbers, I'd still say it would need to sell double that again (50,000) minimum, for dtp to break even, assuming they were paying Wizarbox to make the game for around 2 years, with a small team on average wages. I mean, that's not even taking into account marketing, but it doesn't seem the game got much of that anyway.

Budget-price adventure games do tend to have a long shelf life, however, so I wouldn't count it out. I guess we'll never really know until the creator, developer or publisher comments on it.

[Melanie68]

There are adventure game definition arguments going on in two threads (this one and the LA Noire one). If you'd like to continue that discussion, lets take it over to the LA Noire thread and leave this one for discussing sales.

Thanks!