[dekaneas297]

As somebody else noted, they are just plain games to pass some time. Some of the bigfish games are interesting but eventually they cannot be compared with adventure games as they are not such.

[gray pierce]

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

Actually you all are wrong. HOG are Adventure games. By game development definition, Adventure games require the use of puzzles and complicated object oriented manipulation to solve a situation. By your guys definition, they aren't adventure games, yet you need to realize that adventure games aren't solely first person slideshows or third person point and clicks.

Also, you are all falling for the "I played a generic HOG game. All of them must be like this" disease. I played a point and click adventure game that was horrible, so all adventure games are horrible.

Sure casual games maybe the lite versions of commercial adventure games, but not all of them are generic object finding romps.

kadji-kun you're very right !

However of all the HOG's I've played only three were worth my while and two of them are called Samantha Swift, the other one's Autumn's Treaures.

It's games like Dr Lynch or Margrave Manor (1 and 2) that have genuinely good story and characters but puzzles that are just so stupid and tiresome you stop caring for them. I mean what is a snake doing in an English garden ?

I'm sure there are decent HOG games (I can name three) but the majority is just dumb and lame without proper puzzles that actually make sense. And that is (in my opinion) definetely not the case with the "real" adventure market.

Of course it could be just me being snobbish and all that.

[ozzie]

Originally Posted by Mohlin

Ok, with the risk of sound stupid, what is a HOG? To open a drawer to find a screwdriver that you need to undo something to find the clue to....

If that's it, I would say that it is the pure essence for me in a game. Puzzles. The reason I play!

The main gameplay mode of hidden object games is basically pixelhunting where you know what you have to hunt for.
But many them have evolved and incorporated more gameplay styles and even some story, so many of them got very close to adventure games.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by gray pierce

kadji-kun you're very right !

However of all the HOG's I've played only three were worth my while and two of them are called Samantha Swift, the other one's Autumn's Treaures.

It's games like Dr Lynch or Margrave Manor (1 and 2) that have genuinely good story and characters but puzzles that are just so stupid and tiresome you stop caring for them. I mean what is a snake doing in an English garden ?

I'm sure there are decent HOG games (I can name three) but the majority is just dumb and lame without proper puzzles that actually make sense. And that is (in my opinion) definetely not the case with the "real" adventure market.

Of course it could be just me being snobbish and all that.

Agreed. I know oh so well how many POS HOG are out there. Its just that when you actually find a good one, you truely enjoy it.

They are indeed nothing compared to General Adventure games, but they definitely have the essence of story and mystery.

Stupid Butcher knife laying in a babies crib at daycare. haha

[booB]

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

By game development definition, Adventure games require the use of puzzles and complicated object oriented manipulation to solve a situation.

No, those are puzzle games.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by booB

No, those are puzzle games.

Uh, no. They are adventure games. You seem to have ignored the part "and complicated object oriented manipulation to solve a situation.". Need help to understand? Look at every adventure game. You have to collect random objects in a situation that requires a solution. Did you notice that this is joked about in comedic adventure games? You know, the person that points out "Why are we picking up random objects?" and someone replies "Because I bet it will be used to solve some unusually complicated puzzle to accomplish a seemingly simple action". Yeah, that is what adventure games are. The collection of objects to solve a puzzle.

What else defines an adventure game? Story? No, that defines pretty much every game besides sports or puzzles. Dialog? Again, every game.

[dekaneas297]

Again (and again) the ridiculous argument "they have stories (they have what???), so they are adventure games". Please stop.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by dekaneas297

Again (and again) the ridiculous argument "they have stories (they have what???), so they are adventure games". Please stop.

Exactly. Stories do not define the Adventure game genre.

[dekaneas297]

Actually I was refering to you who wrote

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

They are indeed nothing compared to General Adventure games, but they definitely have the essence of story

But all of a sudden

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

What else defines an adventure game? Story? No

Make up your mind please.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by dekaneas297

Actually I was refering to you who wrote.

You don't understand. That was refering to Grey Pierce who was discussing character and story elements of the HOG games. A dilemma which so many adventure gamers have with HOG games. Sure, story isn't what defines adventure gaming, but it does help adventure gamers tell the difference between general adventure game and HOGs. Yet, it was my point that the defined line is starting to blur.

Please look into our discussion before playing ignorant. Realize that comparing Adventure games to HOGs and Adventure Games as a genre in general are two COMPLETELY different subjects.

[Mohlin]

Let's turn it around. What defines an adventure game?

To me is is.
1. Non action
2. You can't die
3. You have to solve puzzles and figure out clues to finish the game
4. Sometimes you have to collect items, hidden or not, to help you solve the puzzles. (In Myst you don't)
5. Non linear, or maybe non-linear within that chapter or area.

[dekaneas297]

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

Please look into our discussion

I think I am, but what kind of discussion can be done with someone who arrogantly declares "you are all wrong"?

[Fien]

What, nobody mentioned exploration? In an adventure game you can explore the environment, in a casual game it's one static puzzle screen after another. Someone will come up with Return to Ravenhearst, and yes, there are a few exceptions. Very few.

[gray pierce]

I think that in terms of story HOGs are about the same level as adventure games (maybe a little below) And good HOGs have all the basis elements of an adventure game but like I said there are so very few good HOGs. It's hard to look at a genre and declare they're like this or that just because the good ones are.

It's like looking at the adventure game genre and saying they have excellent story and dialogue because the good ones do.

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by Fien

What, nobody mentioned exploration? In an adventure game you can explore the environment, in a casual game it's one static puzzle screen after another. Someone will come up with Return to Ravenhearst, and yes, there are a few exceptions. Very few.

But under genre classification, that can easily be confused with Role Playing Game. It can even classify a Simulation.

Again, we are all fighting over semantics. I'm not talking about the meaning of Adventure or what you feel is an adventure game. I am talking about the TRUE classification of the genre. Genre's aren't made just to satisfy how you feel. It is made to separate between various types of gameplay. We don't call such games Adventure for the sake of hilarity or fun.

@Mohlin: You pretty much described a various other genre's. That is personal feelings and not factual information of what the genre is.

In regards to Myst. You collect information instead of objects to solve puzzles. Still classified as gathering objects to solve a puzzle.

Originally Posted by dekaneas297

I think I am, but what kind of discussion can be done with someone who arrogantly declares "you are all wrong"?

Not really. You are calling me arrogant? Arrogance only applies when I am calling myself a know it all. Its like calling someone arrogant for saying "You are all wrong. The answer to 1+1 is 2." I supplied an answer.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by kadji-kun

But under genre classification, that can easily be confused with Role Playing Game. It can even classify a Simulation.

Nope. In RPGs you play roles. In simulation games you simulate.
This isn't about just ONE defining characteristic for each genre or subgenre.

Again, we are all fighting over semantics.

No, we're not. This has absolutely nothing to do with semantics.

I'm not talking about the meaning of Adventure or what you feel is an adventure game. I am talking about the TRUE classification of the genre. Genre's aren't made just to satisfy how you feel. It is made to separate between various types of gameplay. We don't call such games Adventure for the sake of hilarity or fun.

So you're the only one here who knows the TRUE classification of adventures and HOGs? An interesting point of view. But I'm afraid what you're saying is not making much sense to me.

[Mohlin]

Originally Posted by Fien

So you're the only one here who knows the TRUE classification of adventures and HOGs? An interesting point of view. But I'm afraid what you're saying is not making much sense to me.

Totally agree.
And why is is so important to classify?

[ukpetd]

Some info on casual games.

There are different HOGs, just as there are different adventure games.

HOG = hidden object game. The original was, I believe, developed from the UK I-spy newspaper series. You have a series of static screens with a list of objects to click on to progress the game.

Later there was a development of IHOG = interactive hidden object game. Same series of static sceens, but some of the objects are retained in an inventory and used later in the game (i.e. find crowbar in one scene and use it to open a crate in another).

Both types may also have "spot the difference" puzzles and ocassionally put the objects back into the scene (kind of reverse spot the difference).

Both types may have a puzzle consisting of re-assembling a jigsawed picture.

Both types may have end of chapter puzzles.

Lately another development. Instead of a list of objects to find, only a single word linking several objects is given (i.e. given paper, find paperknife, paper plane, etc...........)

Another type of game is the adventure lite. This is an IHOG with all the found objects used within the game.

Some example BOB games (BOB = best of breed) :
Madame Fate - HOG (good end of chapter puzzles)
Return to Ravenhurst - best IHOG
Resorting to danger - IHOG
Three cards to midnight - IHOG with word clues
Drawn : the painted Tower - adventure lite

As to the value of the games, that's up to the individual. I ignore genres that don't interest me.

[gray pierce]

Thanks ! That was...enlightening

I can clearly see now why I dislike most HOGs

Thanks again

[kadji-kun]

Originally Posted by Fien

So you're the only one here who knows the TRUE classification of adventures and HOGs? An interesting point of view. But I'm afraid what you're saying is not making much sense to me.

Well then, answer me this. Why do genre's exist if they don't have a specific design that defines itself?

How do I know the true classification? Education and Books. Also, you point out I know the true classification of HOG's. I don't know that. I never said I knew that. I just pointed out the definition of the adventure game genre, and how it is used accompany some HOG games.

Also, exploration is apart of the RPG genre. Why? D&D created/expanded the genre by involving Character Creation/Interaction, Environmental Exploration, and Non-linear gameplay. Tell me an RPG that didn't involve exploration of some dungeon or cavern. It goes back before digital game development.

Accusing me of fictional answers, maybe you should pick up a book on game development.


Also, one thing I noticed from all of you. You seemed to point out various features apart of Adventure games such as RPG elements, yet you can't expect the fact HOG's can't call itself an adventure game.

What HOG's do is mix genre's. You can't confirm what that an HOG can't be an adventure, which rereading this thread, is the case.