[Kurufinwe]

AFGNCAAP's (misguided ) comments on the ending of FoA in another thread led to me to think about what a game's final puzzle should be, and to realise that I'm quite picky about that. And, at the end of the day, it's not easy to get it right. If the puzzle is just similar to the others, both in terms of style and difficulty, it tends to diminish my sense of achievement, and sometimes make me feel caught completely by surprise by the onset of the end video (cf. The Dig, for instance). Solving the final puzzle by chance in a few clicks before even realising there was a puzzle there is also horribly frustrating (that happened to me in The Legend of Kyrandia). But, on the other hand, if the end puzzle is too hard and I end up having to use a walkthrough for it, it's frustrating too. The worst is getting stuck on it, stopping for a while, returning to it the following day, solving it then and just having the end sequence to watch; this completely destroys the ending's momentum. I thought MoS handled that rather cleverly: the last puzzle was really special and difficult (insanely so, really), but there were a few more interactive moments after it, allowing to put the player in the mood even if he had to stop while solving the last puzzle. I also thought FoA's final puzzle was really appropriate, because it's special, not easy (but it's completely fair, makes sense, and you can't really get "stuck" on it), and makes the tension rise toward the ending. Having to complete a series of actions in a strict order, with some pressure (possibility to die) is also something I think makes good end puzzles (cf. GK1, QfG3, etc.), although that's not something I'd enjoy if overused in other parts of the game. A mild action sequence can also work fine, if done well (Conquests of the Longbow).

Any thoughts on that? What's your style of end puzzle (and why)? Or have you never given that any thought?

[AFGNCAAP]

Hm... I have a thing for final puzzles that are more complex variations on puzzles that appeared earlier in the story (Monkey Island 2, 5 Days a Stranger).

I also find that sometimes the simplest ideas works best. For example, making the game, or at least the last part of it, a big fetch quest for five ingredients to the magic potion, Seven Amulets of Xzdat, or whatever.* If the final puzzle is making use of the ingredients/amulets/etc., some of those traps you mentioned can be avoided. It shouldn't seem too easy, as getting to the point where you have all the items is technically a part of it. And if it's shaping up too difficult, it could be re-designed so that the player can start thinking on it even before he collects them.

*Shamefully, my brain can't think of any actual example at the moment, but you know what I mean. Things like getting the parts for the Cutifier in Toonstruck, except this one was in the middle of the game rather than at the end.

[MdaG]

As long as it isn't a timed puzzle I'm happy . One example of a ulcer giving puzzle is the end of Full Throttle.

[Nautilus]

I like last puzzles like in The Last Express or Monkey Island 2: thrilling and fun to solve, with very good background music!

[Havrepus]

Hear hear! I hate timed puzzles that are designed (timed) in a way that you have to get everything right (read: played the game at least ten times already) in order to complete it. At least for the kind of timers that are simple countdowns that go way to fast for inexperienced players. The kind where you must wait until the evil guards are looking another way or are going behind a corner until you can go on are a little better, but I still think they could be made so that you don't die unless you hit that exact pixel in that exact moment.

I'm not against timed puzzles, but I definitely prefer puzzles (and games) that let me take time to look around and experiment with possible solutions.

[Nautilus]

Originally Posted by MdaG

As long as it isn't a timed puzzle I'm happy . One example of a ulcer giving puzzle is the end of Full Throttle.

The airplane puzzle? Browsing the control panel menus with no clue!!!! :p

[Xerilon]

It could be a time puzzle as long as the game sets a certain "checkpoint" to make it easy to try again if you fail/die

[Havrepus]

It should be so. I was thinking about a timed event in The Pandora Directive, after you have broken into that secret base and have to make a trap/collect a lot of stuff in order to trap that alien (or whatever that was). Not always so easy to see how far you have to backtrack in order to "try again". This, as I remember it from years ago, was a fairly large "puzzle".

[Squinky]

As long as it's not Monkey Kombat, I'm okay with it.

[Havrepus]

Originally Posted by Squinky

As long as it's not Monkey Kombat, I'm okay with it.

That was a nightmare! Me no like sequences like that.

[jimsta]

Originally Posted by Havrepus

It should be so. I was thinking about a timed event in The Pandora Directive, after you have broken into that secret base and have to make a trap/collect a lot of stuff in order to trap that alien (or whatever that was). Not always so easy to see how far you have to backtrack in order to "try again". This, as I remember it from years ago, was a fairly large "puzzle".

Indeed. That was a pretty massive puzzle. I could see how it would be extremely frustrating without a recent save. So many items...*shudder*. I agree with Kur on the opinion that timed puzzles at the end is a good thing -- it can really add some tension to a game (Phantasmagoria 1 and GK1 come to mind). Not a big fan of final puzzles that are completely ridiculous though (Phantasmagoria 2 anyone? )

[Havrepus]

Originally Posted by jimsta

I agree with Kur on the opinion that timed puzzles at the end is a good thing -- it can really add some tension to a game (Phantasmagoria 1 and GK1 come to mind).

The end-sequence to Phantasmagoria was nothing less than fantastic I think. That is still the one game that actually gave me a real nightmare after playing it. Stupid me, really (funny in retrospect). It was the dead of night and the only lighting I had in the room were candles on each side of the monitor. I was using a headset, so the sound was cranked up to the max, more or less. To make it complete, I also had a nice, big glass of good red wine on the table. And no idea about what to expect, other than a great experience.

Now you can all guess how high I jumped in my chair without spilling wine or candles on the floor when I came to that first murder-scene...! This is perhaps my best gaming-experience ever. And a fond memory...

[Ninth]

I like two kinds of endings: the open ended ones, and the climatic ones.

Open endings: Still Life, Syberia 1. Leaves the player with a kind of nostalgia.

Climax: Simon the Sorcerer, where after spending three quarter of the game in a non-linear, completely accessible world, you have to get through very small, original and self contained settings (I love the Alice in Wonderland interlude) before you finally arrive to the bad guy, and defeat him in one last puzzle.
Or Indiana Jones FoA, in the heart of Atlantis, which you've been looking for the entire game.
In both cases, the game leads the player toward the ending, which feels extremely rewarding.
And more important, you actually play the ending in these games, the same as in Monkey Island, of Kyrandia 2, etc... I don't like the ending to be one long unplayable cut-scene. Hell, I hate it.

So to answer the original question: I want the last puzzle to exist in the first place.

[Fien]

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

I also find that sometimes the simplest ideas works best. For example, making the game, or at least the last part of it, a big fetch quest for five ingredients to the magic potion, Seven Amulets of Xzdat, or whatever.*

*Shamefully, my brain can't think of any actual example at the moment, but you know what I mean. Things like getting the parts for the Cutifier in Toonstruck, except this one was in the middle of the game rather than at the end.

Like in that zorky adventure where the player is an AFGNCAAP?

Or Dark Fall and Barrow Hill.
Or Myst.

[After a brisk nap]

Well, the perfect ending (and end puzzle) depends on the rest of the game. For a puzzle-focused game it makes sense for the final one to be head-scratchingly difficult. For a game with a lot of variety in the gameplay (like Conquests) a non-puzzle might be appropriate. In a suspenseful game, the pressure of a timed sequence can add to the experience.

Though I disagree with AFGNCAAP's opinion on FOA, I reluctantly concur that the end puzzle wasn't a high point of the game. Ironically, I would probably call that a maze: a dialogue maze where you have to work out the paths through the conversation in order to reach your goal. It just doesn't seem very satisfying to me.

In the case of Indy, I think the ending would have been better if, say, you actually had to make your escape from Atlantis as a (generously) timed puzzle. It could be something as simple as just walking: clicking on the exit of each room. You could add a couple of very simple puzzles: knock over the pillar to form a bridge over the lava, that kind of thing. This would tie in nicely with the beginning of the game, with Indy making his way down from the attic of the university library. You could even revert to the simple cursor interface.

A problem with this is that the remaining end sequence would be very short, and might come as a letdown. You might have to beef it up.

I don't particularly like the end puzzle in GK1 (or the similar one in Hand of Fate), where you have to perform some arbitrary series of actions in order to come out alive. It's a prime example of "guess the designer's mind" as well as "which door is the tiger behind?" clairvoyance through save-and-restore. In contrast, the puzzle in 5 Days a Stranger was much more well-balanced. There was an apparent and logical chain of actions and consequences that could be reasoned out in advance, and even if you didn't get it the first time, the hints were sufficient to guide you towards the solution on a second or third try.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Fienepien

Like in that zorky adventure where the player is an AFGNCAAP?

Yeah.

[Fairygdmther]

I hated the insanely difficult timed puzzle at the end of Salammbo, where you had to eat a shoe for energy to stay alive to finish - I never did quite make it. There was a difficult one at the end of Obsidian, with two panels of 8 numbers each flashing on and off for you to remember - I somehow got that one though.

I really don't like timed puzzles - I'd much prefer to have the time you need to deal with the difficulty.

FGM

[Periglo]

I don't really like puzzles like much, since they tend to distract from the main flow of the narrative. Nowhere in a game is this more annoying than at the ending. In this regard, I quite disliked the ending of The Moment of Silence, with all those boring rooms. Reminded me of the ending of Monkey Island II, although this one had a distictive weirdness that made it memorable. I still loved MoS --- in general, I play AGs despite the puzzles, not because of them.

(I know many of you think differently, these are just my particular preferences.)

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Periglo

I don't really like puzzles like much, since they tend to distract from the main flow of the narrative.

It's certainly a valid opinion, but if that's how you feel I'm not sure what interest you find in gaming as opposed to, say, watching a movie...

Because in a game, no matter the genre, the gameplay always distracts the player from the main flow of the narrative.

[LuigiHann]

I just want to say that the final puzzle in Myst 4 made me want to punch somebody.

And not in the good way.