[Becky]

The town on a shelf is an intriguing idea. Especially since we've been flirting with the opposite idea --

Spoiler:

that H's realm might be contained within the stone -- this comes up later in the original thread.

Maybe the things in H's crossroads realm are symbolic of the things within his control -- time (the clock); technology (the digipad); culture (the books, the sculpture and column); the town (the door entrance entwined in the tree?). It's too bad that his influence is so deadly -- most of the things in his realm seem broken!

I like the idea of the town isolated, repeating the same scenario over and over through several generations until somebody finally gets it right (the destruction in the Extra endings of H1 and H2).

[fov]

Originally Posted by Becky

Hey Emily -- you might want to make the King's Quest 2 spoiler a bit more obvious that it's a big KQ2 spoiler. I was so used to thinking: SOD spoilers that I read it before I realized what it really was.

ackkk! i'm so sorry! i thought it was obvious but it wasn't. i hope i didn't ruin anything for you!

good point about H's reaction to eike at the very beginning of the game. except,

Spoiler:

that can't be the *first* time eike's been in town in 500 years, since he and eckert already know each other. i wish we knew a little more about their relationship -- as it is, we're told eike and eckert are friends, but i don't really believe it.

Originally Posted by Becky

Spoiler:

Maybe the things in H's crossroads realm are symbolic of the things within his control

umbrella = the weather?!

-emily

[Becky]

umbrella = the weather?!

Yes, that is the logical extension, isn't it? I can't imagine what the umbrellas are there for. I associate umbrellas with two females: Mary Poppins and Amelia Peabody. Neither seems to be Homunculus's "type."

Actually, H versus Mary Poppins might be quite a showdown.

[Becky]

You are right about Eike having cooled his heels in the town for awhile. So what catches H's attention at that moment? Is it that

Spoiler:

for the first time Eike does NOT have the stone in his pocket? So bringing him into the Crossroads Realm is NOT risking the stone being so close that it could destroy H?

If that's true, why does H not notice it in the Extra Ending when Eike does finally show up in his Realm WITH the stone? H has done the chat with Eike so many times he finally got careless?

[fov]

is eike entering or leaving the coffee shop when H first sees him? if he's entering, he should still have the stone. if he's leaving, he would have dropped it already.

Spoiler:

interesting that hugo doesn't start trying to kill eike until eike has dropped the stone. couldn't he have started a few minutes earlier and stabbed eike on his way *into* the coffee shop, and grabbed the stone then? maybe H. is manipulating hugo the same way he manipulates eike, and has somehow set it up so Hugo can only arrive after eike has dropped the stone... so that hugo has no chance to grab it? i never did buy that hugo built that time machine, all by himself, after seeing the digipad for only a minute when he was a kid... could H. have had something to do with it? possibly -- playing into Hugo's delusions of self-grandeur -- letting hugo think he built the time machine himself?

if this is the case, maybe H. is seeing eike and grinning because he realizes the scenario he set up is about to be set in motion?

-emily

[Becky]

A moment of smug self-congratulation before the battle is joined -- smoke, mirrors and script all in hand.

[Becky]

I found an interesting site devoted to Homunculus.

It contains many SOD spoilers. It's probably not a good idea to visit unless you've finished the game. It has lots of background on the Philosopher's Stone, the Faust story (which the game is loosely based on) and a description of the traditional understanding of a Homunculus. It also contains an interview with the actor who voiced Homunculus (he has previously voiced another very famous video game character -- you'll never guess who!)

Navigation is a bit unusual, but it's well worth the read.

[MysterD]

That was a cool interview.

And that even mentioned that he hoped they were working on a sequel and hoped to play H again.

[MysterD]

Is H Looking Into An Isolated Realm?

Spoiler:

With all this talk of the town possibly being contained within a world, it strikes me as odd, but interesting. The opening scene, we see H looking out of a glass window -- but could he be looking into a world that is this small? Your thought on this is really interesting.

Is Eike Dreaming All Of This?

Spoiler:

Here's a thought of mine. When Eike dies in the game's opening, he falls to the concrete ground. When he wakes up, he's in the same position. But, he's now in H's world. Could Eike be dying and seeing all of this, like what is happening (I think) in the film Mulholland Drive? Could Eike be in a coma and visioning all of this?

I theorize this b/c in dreams, everything is connected, yet fractured. For example, in real world, you know Billy. But, in the dream world, walking around in the background, is someone who looks like Billy -- but is not necessarily the same Billy you know in the real world. Or, you actually talk to this person that looks like Billy in a dream world, but this person is NOT like the Billy in the real world and could be a different person.

Let's take it further. Say Eike is visioning all of this. Could Eike dying be the meaning to the end of The EX Chapter, that Eike goes to Heaven or something?

[spoiler]

[Becky]

I read on the Homunculus site that the name of the town translates: Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is what bore the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe we are seeing an intricate battle between good and evil that takes place in a fixed realm but whipsaws all over various Timespaces/Worlds. Maybe once the battle is won -- the barriers come down to the "real" world and whatever side has won goes now exists in history.

As for the It's A Dream theory -- that idea can be interesting, but it answers so much that it almost takes the fun out of it.

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by Becky

I read on the Homunculus site that the name of the town translates: Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is what bore the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe we are seeing an intricate battle between good and evil that takes place in a fixed realm but whipsaws all over various Timespaces/Worlds. Maybe once the battle is won -- the barriers come down to the "real" world and whatever side has won goes now exists in history.

That's really interesting w/ your battle theory b/t good and evil, winner comes to reality.

Really? The town name translate "Tree of Life?" What was the Town name, again?

If you remember, the timespace and worlds they jump around, they can be considered branches, since there are multiple paths and worlds; like multiple "branches" on a tree. So, maybe this whole epic saga could've been called a "Tree Of Life."

I think the fortune teller woman referred to these as "threads," I'm just renaming them to "branches."

As for the It's A Dream theory -- that idea can be interesting, but it answers so much that it almost takes the fun out of it.

The dream theory pretty much would answer everything. Maybe we need a SOD2 to answer everything we've been questioning here.

[fov]

the tree of life, eh? would that be the same tree that led to adam and eve's downfall? (i thought that was the tree of knowledge? or maybe it was the fruit of knowledge on the tree of life? gotta check my Milton...)

okay then, we've already established that H. lives in or near this tree... would he be the serpent goading eike into taking the forbidden fruit?

during the game

Spoiler:

the tree disappears and later comes back. it didn't make sense to me that the tree came back -- unless someone else went back 500 years and reversed what eike did in chapter 2 to get rid of the tree in the first place. considering this is the ending where H. died and the digipad was destroyed, who could have done that? or maybe the idea is that you *can't* get rid of the tree of life... it always comes back, no matter what?

i don't remember the town name but i think it's written on the map.

-emily

[Becky]

The town name is Lebensbaum.

Yeah, I blew it. There were two trees. The fruit of one gave you the knowledge of good and evil. The other tree, the tree of life has fruit that brings you immortality. I guess that would fit with

Spoiler:

the Elixir of Life, which has been said to heal and also to bring immortality.

So much for my battle of good and evil! It sounded so good!

I printed up the coffee/tea conversation from the Homunculus site. Do you want it transcribed here? Let me know.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 6

Becky --

Spoiler:

When Homunculus is first freed he says something like: "Are you my so-called master this time?" which indicates that he has been freed before and trapped back into the stone before. This would mean that the stone is ancient.

In ending A the stone ends up in the tree in the square. In the opening sequence we see H watching Eike from the tree in the square. The door to the outer world from H's realm is entwined in a tree.

I think the stone is somehow linked to the center of the town. An alchemist of Wagner's ability plus the stone nearby, perhaps buried in the very place that the worker in Wagner's time is planting the tree, Wagner's daughter a sort of magnet for the stone -- that I think was the first fated event.

Dana was fated to find the stone and Wagner was fated to release Homunculus. I also think that Homunculus's time-shifting power is restricted to events that happened in the town, and that is why he looks without success for centuries until Eike happens to wander back into town.

fov -- That's a really interesting point about the tree being a gateway. It makes a lot of sense to me.

About Homunculus's comment:

Spoiler:

When he says:Are you my so-called master this time" I actually thought it was a reference to him being a type of genie. He then goes on to ask Dr. Wagner what his wish is. I guess it could mean that H has been released from/sent back into the stone more than once, kind of like a genie that's linked to a lamp.

About the fortune teller: I also wondered how Hugo could hear his mother [before the house collapsed] since he couldn't see her. Could be that H lured him in there, but remember, when he set Helena's spirit free initially, he could hear her. I'd prefer it if it was Helena that he heard...as much as I like ending A, I was very disturbed by the way Homunculus lured Hugo off with his "father." It feels like more of a happy ending to me if Hugo dies with his mother. I just wish there was a way to keep Dana in town after that, rather than take her back. THAT would be my perfect ending!

Becky -- I'm having second thoughts about the tree.

Spoiler:

Doesn't Homunculus encourage Eike to get rid of the tree as the way to defeat the murderer in Chapter 2? If the tree is important, it doesn't make sense that Homunculus would agree to it never-having-been planted.

BTW, did you ever choose the statue and then, later in the game, go in to get a close look at it? Pretty funny.

MysterD --

Spoiler:

...The theory of H could lure Hugo into the old alchemists' house is interesting given what he did in "Ending A" w/ the fake "Dr. Wagner". And just like the fake Dr. Wagner, Helena does sound like a zombie, to say the least. Helena in the decrepit house doesn't sound like the same sick and emotional Helena in the bed -- she sounds, as the fortune teller, rather slow, calculated and zombie-like in her speeches throughout the game.

remixor -- Damnit, this is just the untouchable thread for me. I've not played SOD so I don't want to read any stuff that will give anything away. I'm only responding because this thread ALWAYS has the "unread" icon for me and it's driving me nuts.

That is all.

Becky -- Remixor -- frustration is good for you. It is an important part of life. I am tremendously proud of you for looking at all these spoiler tags and not peeking at a single one.

On the other hand, there is a solution to this problem. There's this online store called Amazon.com and Shadow is right there in their inventory. I believe that, in a mere 24 hours, this problem could be solved. Well, 24 hours to get the game. Then, say, 20 hours to get all the endings. More if you refuse to look at a walkthrough. Another 20 hours to get your percentages up.

See ya round about next Wednesday. You will be most welcome.

Spoiler:

Oh, and I was thinking about the Fortune Teller's zombiesque voice and you know what? She is a disembodied undead spirit. She IS a zombie.

Poor Eike. His wife is a zombie. His son is trying to murder him. His daughter keeps stealing his most precious possession. How did he get into this mess?

fov -- ...in the beginning sequence with H, Eike thinks

Spoiler:

that Homunculus is the devil and is trying to get Eike to sell his immortal soul? I think this is exactly what did happen when Eike let H out of the stone. H even says something about it in one of the endings (D or E) and bad things happen to people who sell their souls to the devil.

P.S. remixor -- What Becky says about Amazon, is true, but I'll make it even easier for you: (lists two EB GAmes stores in Berkeley, CA).

C'mon, you know you want to....

MysterD -- The fortune teller and her voice:

Spoiler:

It sure sounds like [she is a zombie], the more I have thought about this -- the way she acts, the way she talks; the whole nine yards. The woman in bed was not a sick -- well, she was sick. I mean she wasn't deranged.

And she sounds too deranged to be her and zombiesque to even be her. I think H pulled off another one of his tricks, like he did in Ending A w/ Dr. Wagner.

Wagner wanted the Philosopher's Stone to try and create life -- and in actuality, all he did was release an evil genie. That is how he got into this mess and became Eike -- If you believe in that theory of Ending D that Eike is Wagner, that is.

remixor -- lol, thanks Becky and Emily (fov). It's not so much an availability issue -- believe it or not, I have heard of Amazon. I also know of both of those EBGames stores...there are other games I need to get first (TLJ, Syberia, etc. -- yep, I stll need to play those) that take priority over SOD. HOWEVER, I'm sure I'll get to it eventually.

Original Thread -- Entry 6 ends here

[fov]

the tree of life has fruit that brings you immortality

this still works... especially if you consider that with the many worlds theory (and the ability to prevent his own death, thanks to Homunculus), eike is essentially immortal... even if he dies in one world, there are an infiniate number of other worlds where he doesn't... isn't it possible that in one of those, he figures out how to cheat death over and over and over without the cycle ever ending?

after all,

Spoiler:

he seems to have done okay for the last 500 years...

-emily

ps you could just provide a link to the coffee/tea conversation, if you don't want to transcribe it all here... or is it a .wav file that you got?

[Becky]

Sorry. Gotta get out of transcription mode.

(Depending on where you are in the game, the following link may provide spoilers. By Chapter 5, it technically isn't a spoiler, since you could have triggered it already if you'd done things in a certain order.)


The notorious coffee/tea Many Worlds conversation

Spoiler:

If the tree springs spontaneously back from some sort of immortal seed, then H isn't risking anything by encouraging Eike to stop it from being planted. Sooner or later it'll grow back anyway.

About Hugo -- I'm beginning to agree with you that H is controlling him too. If H can free all aspects of himself (including the one copy of himself that's still in the stone) and then destroy the family line of alchemists, maybe no one can ever put him back! He only seems to be able to destroy Hugo through another agent that attacks while Hugo is time traveling. (the collapsing house, the Wagner "puppet") It's also just too much of a coincidence that Hugo strikes first immediately after Eike is parted from the stone.

[Phil25]

Y'know, this is probably the deepest thread we've ever had on this forum.

[fov]

Originally Posted by BECKY

Spoiler:

He only seems to be able to destroy Hugo through another agent that attacks while Hugo is time traveling. (the collapsing house, the Wagner "puppet")

or maybe

Spoiler:

homunculus COULD kill hugo whenever he wants to, he just waits until after hugo and eike have done his bidding. Consider this - eike's been wandering around Tree-of-Lifeville for 500 years with the stone in his pocket the whole time. we see in Chapter 3 that eike is a logical thinker... H. needs to set up a reason for Eike to use the digipad, because he's not just going to travel back in time with the stone unless he has a good reason. So, H. gets Hugo to try to kill Eike, because that's the only thing that's going to get Eike to use the digipad. once Eike has gotten the stone to Dr. Wagner, H. doesn't need Hugo anymore... he only needs Hugo to keep trying to kill Eike long enough for Eike to use the digipad (to avoid his own death) and get the stone to Dr. Wagner. just as H. won't restore Eike's life after the stone has been returned, he also doesn't need Eike to be "killed" anymore after that point. So, now he can dispose of Hugo (or not, depending on the ending...

what i still don't get is why H. has decided that NOW is the time to set this plan in motion. does it have something to do with

Spoiler:

the baby switch? he had to wait long enough for margarete / dana to be the right age to flirt with eike?

if that's the case, couldn't he have

Spoiler:

switched margarete with any baby twenty years before he planned to set the wheels in motion? couldn't he have traded her with a baby born in 1800 and sent hugo after eike in 1820? or did it have to be mr. eckert's baby because he mr. eckert would assist hugo, when someone with more moral character might not have?

this brings me back to the possibility that

Spoiler:

eike HAS only just returned to town, which is why this is the first point that H. can start his plot

i wish we knew how well eike and eckert knew each other... it'd help a lot. i.e. is eckert eike's mentor? or did they just meet on the street one day and eckert said, "hey, why don't you come by my museum sometime?" eckert knows eike well enough that

Spoiler:

they've had a conversation about eike not remembering his parents... but could it also be possible that at the beginning of the game they don't know each other at all (which would be why in ch. 2 eckert's standing right there in the square and eike doesn't see / recognize him), but sometime between chs 2 and 3 Homunculus has done something with time travel or has somehow manipulated one of the "other" eikes in another world so that by the time chapter 3 starts, they DO know each other? "our" eike wouldn't remember this, just as he didn't remember the metal plate stuff that prompts the coffee / tea conversation... but in this case, the player wouldn't "remember" it either...

-emily (not sure i'm still making sense...)

[Becky]

What Homunculus wants:

Spoiler:

To get his counterpart out of the stone and keep him out of the stone.
To do this, he has to get the stone to Wagner, who has all the needed stuff to finish the experiment.

The Wagners are also the only ones capable of forcing the freed Homunculus BACK into the stone. Therefore, killing them (once H is freed) is a laudable goal. Take out the Wagner line altogether and H never has to worry again. If you think about it, if H thought Dana really WAS Eike's ancestress, pulling her out of the correct century and plunking her down in ours ALSO would have prevented a (modern-day Eike's) birth, wouldn't it?

And yeah, I think H is using Hugo as part of a dastardly evil design. Of course there's a lot of material there for H to work with!

I'm not sure that the friendship between Eckert and Eike is important. I think it may simply be a plot device for getting Eike to the museum. It seems likely that their counterparts in previous incarnations were friends, so hanging out at the mansion/museum together feels like deja vu all over again.

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by Becky

I'm not sure that the friendship between Eckert and Eike is important. I think it may simply be a plot device for getting Eike to the museum. It seems likely that their counterparts in previous incarnations were friends, so hanging out at the mansion/museum together feels like deja vu all over again.

I think the relationship b/t Eckert and Eike IS important:

Spoiler:

As we all know, Eike has been pushed off the tower b/c of Eckert. Why? B/c Eckert believes a man who looks like Eike killed his wife Mariam, if you believe he never saved her and the multiple world theory. Remember, in most instances, Eike is at the scene of the crime -- whether he did it or not (unless you ignore the whole sequence in that Chapter after you talk to Mr. Franssen.

Remember, In Chap 7's Finale, after that whole ordeal w/ Eike living after hanging onto the rope, Eckert says he knew you looked like the one that was at the scene of the crime, which is why he befriended Eike. Also, this could explain why in one of the chapters -- was in Chapter 3? -- that a vase falls on your head. Was that Mr. Eckert trying to kill Eike? Did he drop the vase purposely?

And you have to remember, Hugo put Mr. Eckert all up to this -- if you go by the part that he has kidnapped Margarete.