[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 1

Under the title: "Shadow Of Desinty ENDINGS***SPOILERS***

MysterD posts -- Let's discuss the endings of the SOD game, theories of the game, what endings you received, what ending is your fav., plot twists, blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc.

And use spoiler tags!

Spoiler:

I was pretty much in shock when I found out that Eike is Dr. Wagner.

(There is a general discussion re: D is a good ending.)

Kapten Grogg -- The speculations that Time is something beyond manipulation and that Margarette was drawn to her proper era made impact on me.

Snatcher42 --

Spoiler:

If Wagner/Eike trapped Homunculus in the past, how is he free to help Eike in the future?

MysterD -- That problem you mention above would probably have to do with something called The Many Worlds theory in the game that Homunculus (H) speaks of -- by using this theory you can say in one world H is free, but in another H is not.

Lemme quote from (Gamefaqs.com) on the Many Worlds theory:

Spoiler:

3. What is the Many World theory?

Homunculus briefly mentions this in the game. Think of time as a river and it has many many tributaries, each branching off in different directions. Each tributary is a different timeline, where different events happened (like say Hitler winning World War 2). The example that Homunculus gives is of Eike sitting in a cafe deciding between tea and coffee. In one world, he chooses tea, in another coffee.

Each of these worlds exists, but only Eike is aware of the world he is in.

The Many Worlds theory actually cancels out the time paradox theories because there are almost infinite worlds. Let's take the Grandfather paradox as an example using the Many Worlds theory. Say I live in Universe A, and I travel back in time and kill my grandfather. By doing this I don't alter Universe A, but I create a new Universe B, where my grandfather died and I was never born, but because I was from Universe A, I still exist. However, in Universe B I do not exist. In the game this causes Eike to see the after-effects of an event he did not do. (For example, getting a note telling him to get a frying pan even though he hasn't written the note.)

fov --

Spoiler:

This is very similar to the philosophy of Leibnitz, who said that every possible interaction between people/objects is being acted out in parallel worlds...the "perfect world" (the one we live in) is the world where the most of these interactions make sense.

...I am wondering if the blonde/freckled drunk driver (in ending C) is a "modern day" version of Hugo? They look sort of the same but not exactly....it would be cool if it were ultimately a Hugo descendant who killed Eike, even if the original Hugo had been wiped from existence.

MysterD -- According to Ending D, Eike is immortal. So, all of his deaths really aren't deaths. He really is being used by H just to make Eike's life hell of banishing him.

fov -- Overall, I am a little disturbed that

Spoiler:

We know Homunculus swapped Margarete and Dana when they were babies, but are unable to swap them back, ending A is the closest we come to this, but I would have liked to swap them back as babies so Mr. Eckhart didn't have to live without his daughter all those years. Also creeps me out a little bit that in ending E Eike is basically flirting with his great great great great grandma...

Something I really like about this game is how the player fits into the "other worlds" theme. Eike not remembering what happens to him from one path to another (because, of course, there is only one of him) but the player does.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure Eike is immortal. Homunculus does say that he will get the doctor's soul when the doctor dies. I think it's just eternal youth, not immortality, in which case...could it be that Homunculus is the one who put the bug in Hugo's ear to kill Eike? Because H wants revenge?

PS2 anyone else think that the Homunculus looks like a girl?

Kapten Grogg -- This is the main premise of the game: Time doesn't change. Everything fits like a puzzle.

THAT was the twist of the game to make Eike travel through time with the intention to alter, without understanding that everything that happened was meant to happen and that his own "free will" was an illusion.

Nothing's above the determined. Not even Homunculus.

pleto4-ryan -- Actually he IS a girl I think...He is a

Spoiler:

deamon-jinie

so you can say he is something in the middle. As for Eike, he is not immortal, D ending

Spoiler:

he is just young forever...

MysterD -- He does look like a girl, but is always referred to as a "he". H is more like an "It"? LOL

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 2

MysterD --

Spoiler:

When Dana goes to meet Eike and show him the stone and give him his lighter, we see a man standing near the tree who is wearing glasses and looks overweight, holding a paper. That looks like Eckert? Is that him?

When Eike dies, in the view from the tree, you can quickly see the man is gone -- that is the killer, I suppose.

fov -- I think it's just a "red herring" because

Spoiler:

Later Eckert says that pushing Eike of the tower was the *only* time he tried to kill him. Also because when Eike overhears Eckert talking to Hugo on the phone, Eckert says "he's coming over tomorrow to look at paintings," which suggests that he won't try to kill Eike until he comes over to look at the paintings. I assumed Eckert was just standing there to throw us off as to who the real killer was...when Eike gets hit in the head with the falling urn, that could have been Eckert's first attempt on Eike's life...and since it didn't actually happen that way, when Eckert says later that throwing him off the tower was his only attempt on Eike's life, he means it.

MysterD -- Come to think of it, you're right...

Spoiler:

must've been Hugo all those times. We know for sure Hugo was the one trying to burn that bar down! He was at the scene of the burning building, and he was leaving the scene when he starts the fire and Eike puts it out when you go back to before the fire began.

fov -- I find it interesting that, according to the Many World Theory, one Eike does not "remember" what another Eike has done, but the *player* does remember what both Eikes did. It kind of sets the player up as a god figure.

But once you have finished all five endings and unlock the "new chapter"

Spoiler:

Eike does remember what happened before -- he knows to look for the stone in the cafe, etc.

This makes me think that after a certain point, Eike and the player become one.

MysterD -- I received ENDING E, which shows a paradox -- unless you think of a theory in the game.

Spoiler:

This one even MORE so proves that the Many Worlds theory has to be true. This time around...we see Wagner want H to disappear, but H turns the tables and makes Wagner disappear...This whole thing DISPROVES the Eike being Wagner theory from Ending D. But the beauty of this all is that the Many World Theory can prove both as true: that in one universe, Eike can be Wagner and Wagner can be gone in another universe.

fov -- Did you notice

Spoiler:

Eike telling Dr. Wagner to put a pentagram on the ground?

I didn't get this scene until AFTER I saw Ending D. It made me think that Eike did remember something from one of the "other worlds," if only subconsciously (otherwise how would he have known to say that to Dr. Wagner?) but it does make me wonder

Spoiler:

where the pentagram came from the first time.

Ahh, too many paradoxes! I am still so impressed with the depth of this storyline. Someone must have really thought it through.

MysterD -- About Dr. Wagner:

Spoiler:

...I remember the scene near the bar where Homunculus did not like ONE BIT seeing that book with the pentagram...before he is poisoned, Eike reads that book on alchemy Eckert let him borrow. I bet the issue with the pentagram thingy is written somewhere in there. With this, Eike can warn Wagner to smack that pentagram on the ground.

I agree, the game was geniusly written; written such that you can put together scenes in any way almost and make them make some sense, based on what theories you want to actually believe.

Best way to go about this game, I think, is this: believe everything and accept everything you see as a single scene (same strategy I used when I watched the film Mulholland Drive and tried to make sense of that). Then, from there, you can decide what parts are a paradox and conflict with another part. Then you can take things and rule them out by disproving them with another scene or scenes that they bump heads with.

Spoiler:

In SOD, I believe the Many Worlds theme is the universal theory to the game: without this, there'd by LOADS of paradoxes that'd make us REALLY scratch our heads. I think this theme proves just about everything to be pretty much true. With an endless number of worlds and possibilities, this speaks that each ending takes place in another plane. Anything is possible, with this theory.

There are so many paradoxes, but that Many Worlds theory can hold many of these things that were paradoxes, as no longer a paradox -- if there was just one world, things would be overwritten.

Time travelling with one world is like having a PC with one file on it to save to. Say it's Derick.doc. I began it on 2/11/2003. Now, say it's 4/11/2003. Say the PC has a restore, so I restore and revert file back to the date of 2/13/2003. Now, everything I do has changed for Derick.doc and overwote this one Derick.doc file, once I hit 4/11/2003.

With the Many Worlds/Multiuniverse Theory, time travel is interesting; it is like having a PC with one file on it. Say the file's name is Derick.doc, which I began on 2/11/2003. Say it allows for a restore file to an older date and today's date is 4/11/2003. Say I want to revert the Derick.doc file to the date of 2/13/2003. This will create another file on the machine called Derick2.doc -- like having another world. All my work from 4/11/2003 is still in existence under Derick.doc. Nothing is overwritten and nothing is lost, period.

fov -- Nice analogy with the computer file. Re H and the book:

Spoiler:

I was hoping there would be some way to use the book against H in one of the endings, but never figured out a way to do so.

MysterD --

Spoiler:

What was interesting about Ending E was I did see the pentagram on the ground. But interestingly enough, Homunculus NEVER STEPPED ON IT...About H and the book I have no idea!...

Garyos -- I'm currently playing through the game again, to get 100%. I never really tried it as much as you guys did the first time I played it...But now I'm in the fray again!

I'm currently at about 75%, and now just have some fiddly bits left...But it's really cool to see everything this time around, it's really LOADS of different paths to go, with the small stuff. The guide at gamefaq's is extremely well-made.

And the Many Worlds theory MUST be the corect one, or the whole game is one giant paradox....

Spoiler:

I mean, why would Hugo try to kill Eike if it weren't for him traveling in time? But Eike got the Digipad because Hugo killed Eike....Maybe someone completely different killed Eike the first time around, but that's the only way the game could NOT base itself on the MW theory....

fov -- Garyos, you bring up a good point. This is something I can never understand with time travel -- how did all this start?! The game never tells us who dropped the stone in the cafe in the first place.

Spoiler:

Although, ending D suggests that it was Eike -- in fact, ending D is really the only ending that tells us how this whole loop started...and in the Extra Chapter you see that Eike wasn't the one who dropped the stone, because he looks for it before he leaves the cafe and it isn't there.

This makes me think that Homunculus left it there, but I haven't figure out how yet.

MysterD -- I just picked up on this:

Spoiler:

...The Fortune Teller does hint to the Many World theory in the very beginning of the game. She says to Eike..."There are so many threads....so many tangles."

When I first saw this line, before seeing the Many Worlds theory, I did believe that she was saying that there are many possiblities based on your action. Now, I see it as ALSO pointing to the Many Worlds theory.

...About H and the Stone: H probably did drop it -- which I haven't seen; I don't even know if that is explained.

H probably was already born in another world and dropped it there so he'd be born in another world -- basing this all on the Many Worlds theory.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 3

fov -- Intereresting tidbit in the beginning....

Spoiler:

It shows H sitting around in his room, and then he sees Eike through a window. Eike has just emerged from the coffee shop and is looking around -- it looks like the scene right before he gets killed the first time. It's as if Homunculus first noticed Eike and thought: "Hey, I can get this guy to help me."

That would fit with the theory that H planted the stone in the cafe.

Becky -- I don't think that Homunculus can touch the stone.

fov -- That's an interesting point.

Spoiler:

Since Homunculus is contained within the stone, would his touching it have the same effect as Eike "running into himself"?

If you're wondering what I'm talking about, in Chapter One when you've traveled back to before the murder, try returning to the cafe and interacting with Eike sleeping at the table....)

MysterD -- Based on all of this:

Spoiler:

Since this is confusing, I will refer to Homunculus as these two H's:

H1 = Homunculus not in the stone
H2 = Homunculus within the stone

As long as H1 didn't touch the actual H2, H should be okay -- he isn't touching himself, he is touching the STONE that surrounds H2. But, if there was a crack in the stone surrounding H2 and he touched part of the physical H2, both will cease to exist.

As for Eike touching the other Eike in the cafe, he ACTUALLY touches Eike!

I don't remember H being within the stone. I thought the stone was an ingredient needed to summon H.

Or is it explained somewhere that H lives within the stone?

fov -- H's connection to the stone is explained somewhere...don't want to give it away if you haven't seen that bit yet. I think it mostly comes out in ending A, but also is alluded to in ending D (you might not have gotten the reference the first time you saw ending D, but it has to do with

Spoiler:

how homunculus first greets Dr. Wagner when he's first "created"

Becky -- What happens in one of the extra endings is what makes me think that Homunculus can't touch the stone. Also, I think that Homunculus takes the risk of using Eike as an agent to travel through time because he (Homunculus) needs someone who can actually handle the stone

Spoiler:

to get it to Wagner. I think H1 is actually from a separate timeline or another world. The world of the game is the world of H2, in which Wagner is granted eternal youth and Homunculus is trapped in the stone. Could Wagner/Eike have been carrying the stone for centuries but not realize it because of the memory spell?

In the very beginning sequence, Homunculus seems to be waiting for Eike. I think in his "first" conversation with Eike he actually says that he's been waiting to see him again.

Spoiler:

Eike and H1's first meeting seems to be on the stairs above the ruined lab when Homunculus says to Eike; "Who are you?" The troublesome thing, of course, is that Eike couldn't have been traveling in time without the digipad, and he couldn't have acquired the digipad without first meeting Homunculus. This paradox I haven't figured out yet.

MysterD -- My answer to that paradox makes it no longer a paradox.

Spoiler:

...it is no longer a paradox if you believe in multiple worlds. I do, because it proves most paradoxes can be possible, since multiple Eikes, H's and characters can enter a world....hence the sequence when Eike travels to the cafe that belongs to the timeframe when Eike's head is on the table; just don't touch him, or you will both cease to exist!

I try to look at [apparently conflicting] scenes independently -- especially when you travel from world to world. Because if you believe there's multiple worlds, then that means you could be traveling from one world to another world and not really know that you've traveled to another world.

fov -- To expand upon the Multiple Worlds theory just a little -- in school, I learned about the philosophy of Leibniz. He called every physical thing in the world a "monad." Monads interact with each other, and there are an infinite possible number of interactions. Some of these interactions "make sense" (based on our version of reality) and other interactions don't. We live in the "most perfect world" -- the world where the most interactions make sense.

Say the phone is a monad and I am a monad. In one world, the phone rings, and I answer it. (This is the world we live in, because the interaction between me and the phone makes sense.) In another world, I answer the phone and then it rings. In another, I answer the phone but it never rings. These are less perfect worlds, because the interactions are flawed. Since there are an infinite number of possibilities, there are an infinite number of worlds.

I see the multiple worlds theory as an offshoot of this -- as Eike changes his destiny, he is traveling across different worlds. All of the outcomes (and all the combinations of interactions) were "possible" to begin with, because all possible interactions already exist in the infinite worlds. Eike is just traveling across the worlds as he experiments with the different possible outcomes....

Becky, you might be right about there being Homunculuses(?) from two different worlds. What I find intersting about H's "Who are you?" is that he seems much...younger, and more bewildered, than we see him anywhere else in the game.

Spoiler:

If we're to believe that Eike ran into the alchemists house AFTER what we saw in the endings, I don't believe that H would react that way to seeing Eike. H seemed to be manipulative and in control when we saw him in the lab, but then timid and shaky on the stairs. That's what makes me think H1 has sent Eike out to create H2.

Becky -- I was thinking of time as a river -- with a main branch off of which events or decisions (coffee or tea) split into different streams. Therefore, if you change something back in history along the main branch, all the streams/worlds off that branch will be affected.

But the Many Worlds/Monads theory seems to be taking the river and infinitely duplicating it -- not just the streams at the moment of decision, but all history that came before. So that if you change something along the main branch in Timespace/World 1, you would not necesarily create a change at that particular point in Timespace/World2.

I still think that:

Spoiler:

there isn't yet an adequate explanation for why Homunculus ever, in any timespace/world, would decide to set this entire chain of events in motion. Hugo only threatens Homunculus's existence if time-traveling Eike shows up in the first place. In SOME world, SOME Homunculus has to make a mistake that sets both Eike and Hugo time-traveling.

Original Thread -- Entry 3 ends here

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by fov

i have even started stumbling onto inconsistencies in my attempts to find new scenes... for example, in chapter 6:

Spoiler:

save miriam. then in chapter 8, after talking to hugo in the square, seek out homunculus. H talks about taking the baby, and eike says something like "did you murder mr. eckert's wife, too?" but, of course, she has not been murdered...

i was actually a bit annoyed by this, because the game has been so careful to be consistent in other places.

Maybe Eike was messing with H, since H has been using Eike throughout the entire game.

But yes -- I think Konami goofed.

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by Becky

As to the powerballs, aren't they

Spoiler:

what fuels the digipad? Aren't they a lot more closely related to Homunculus than to Eike? Little bits of Hom-power distributed through the town? (Maybe locations where he's enjoyed tormenting other alchemists in the past?) They really should be red.

Well, here's the interesting part; the powerballs are just potent energy floating around to activtate the digipad.

I don't know if Eike can literally SEE the energy; one can't see an atom, can they? But we know it's there.

I think Eike senses the energy, so he sees this energy as he wishes.

Okie, enough of my BS to try and explain something that was just put there for probably reasons of "gameplay."

Were the powerballs ever mentioned in the game? Or just in the manual (on PDF file format) and the slip of paper that came in the box?

[Becky]

I don't remember if they were mentioned in the game. You're right, Eike doesn't seem to be aware of their presence.

The only place I could think of them being mentioned is the chapter where Homunculus throws Eike back in time with an empty digipad and tells him to figure things out on his own. I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and trigger the scene and see if Homunculus actually mentions the power balls.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 4

MysterD -- I got ending A. Wow...that definitely was the best ending of the bunch. Everything made so much sense.

Ending A and B talk:

Spoiler:

I have 91% on Epilogue -- I never took the other "B" path...To get the other "B" path, do you just speak to H in 1980 and then bring him back to Hugo? Or is there more?

When I got my first "B" path, all I did was speak to Fortuneteller. Then went back to Hug.

To get A, I found H. Then, I saw when I teleported back I was near Helena, so I walked in -- thinking that might get me other "B" path but in fact, that takes you to ending A!

EXTRA Chapter Talk:

Spoiler:

The music before you select if you want to "Start" or "Continue" is different. Cool.

Also, I told H "Am I dead again?" And then I said, "Oh, Homunculus"

This is weird...It's as if now the player and Eike become ONE. I saved right after I left the cafe -- that was cool how Eike was looking under the table for the Stone and Dana gave him a a weird look.

I'm going to have to run through this NEW game!

fov -- I like the A ending best, although I wish Eike could have

Spoiler:

switched the babies back. It's good that Eckert adopted Margarete, but would have been better if he'd had her around for the last 20 yars. H said that he brought baby Dana to the 80s, and I ran around for awhile trying to find her...oh well.

The extra chapter is neat, but you don't get to play through the whole game that way (too bad). It kind of breaks down the "fourth wall" between Eike and the player, which is neat. I like the idea of games that are aware of themselves as games. (I wrote a whole long paper in college about plays that have characters who are aware that they're acting in plays.)

I am interested to hear what you think of the final movie. I read a walkthrough yesterday that had a very different take on it than I had.

I still only have like 74% on the epilogue, which is weird, because I have seen all the endings (that I know of). Maybe since I didn't save my data, it didn't calculate my seeing the ending into the results? I don't know. I don't have 100% in any of the chapters yet.

MysterD -- My ? of the Extra Chapter endings:

Spoiler:

Eike at both EX endings says he's "free of regrets." What the hell? Did Eike just join God? Go to Heaven? Or does it all start over again?

fov -- Here's my take on the EX endings:

Spoiler:

in both caes, I thought Eike was happy because he stopped the cycle

.

What I didn't get was why both endings had the same movie.

Spoiler:

It made sense to me that we'd see what we saw after Helena was cured -- because Hugo would then go on to have kids, and that's who Eike was interacting with at the end. But I thought, when he tossed the stone at Homunculus, he effectively killed himself, because he's now dead and H can't bring him back...so I was surprised to see that ending movie.

(The scene with H did support the theory that H can't touch the stone for the same reasons that Eike can't touch his sleeping self, though.)

Here's the explanation I read in a walkthrough (that makes sense...sorta)

Spoiler:

Who we see in the ending movie isn't actually Eike. He seems younger than Eike (I didn't think so, but I guess the different clothes do make him look younger, plus he's friends with those guys that he wasn't friends with during the game). It could be a descendant of Dr. Wagner and Helena's. In which case, the Hugo kid who hits him with the ball would be his relative...which he doesn't seem to be, from the way they interact.

As for regrets, I think he just means now that he's vanquished H, he doesn't regret anything else that he's done...I really liked being able to cure Helena. I would have liked to see Dana again at the end, though. In fact I would have liked it if halting the cycle prevented Dana and Margarete from having been switched.

MysterD --

Spoiler:

This [interpretation] makes sense -- that who we see is not Eike. The clothes are different. And we never hear this "Eike" speak, either...he does rub [the Hugo kid's] head and pat it...I interpreted this that they knew each other, from that pat. You don't do that with a kid you DON'T know.

Becky --

Spoiler:

In the extra ending where you save Helena, I think it would make sense if right after Helena drinks the elixir we see Margaret fade away and Dana appear -- by using the stone to save Helana, doesn't that mean that the baby switch never happened? And Eike's fading away in this ending I thought meant that he had, by allowing the stone to be destroyed, essentially erased his existence as Eike in this particular timespace/world. Then the stuff about no regrets makes no sense because I don't see how he is even around as a voice to be expressing such thoughts.

What Eike says about no regrets I think makes better sense with the other extra ending.

Spoiler:

Eike destroys Homunculus so Homunculus's power fades. There is nothing to hold Eike in Homunculus's realm anymore. In this ending, as Eike fades out of the realm, I picture him appearing again in the square. Then the "no regrets" thing makes sense because he knows the people he meets are continuing on in their own worlds. Does this mean he has really overcome the original memory-wipe spell and he remembers all the endings? Or do the Extra endings feed only off of Ending C where Eike dies again in order to start the game again?

MysterD -- Ending B, second time around:

Spoiler:

...Even though in this ending H speaks of switching the babies, sometimes you want more proof than from H's own mouth; the horse's mouth.

What I really liked was it hinted more at the truth of Ending A -- that Dana and Margarete were switched, when Eckert said Dana would look like Margaret.

Plus, Dana does look a lot like Eike, anyways: blonde hair, similar color eyes.

It makes sense that Margarete is really Dana. Plus, I like to think that too -- since Ending A rocked.

fov -- In ending E, did you notice

Spoiler:

how alike Dana and Hugo look?

There were some points where I couldn't tell them apart.

Becky, interesting question about Ending C. I did wonder, as I started the EX chapter, how did we wind up here? Even after hearing the Many Worlds theory, it was hard for me to accept that the game was starting over again, after I'd seen all those endings.

Interesting thing about Ending C, it's the only one that doesn't roll the credits afterwards (all the other endings do). Could it be because that ending is supposed to lead into the EX chapters?

Original Thread -- Entry 4 ends here

[Becky]

Okay, I've been thinking about the power balls some more. I agree with MysterD that they were probably just put there for reasons of gameplay and were not meant to tie closely into the actual plot. Despite that, how about more wild speculation that:

Spoiler:

the power balls are energy sources placed there by the same alchemist that originally created the philosopher's stone. These energy sources are very similar to Homunculus's power (similar enough to power the digipad) but their funciton is to keep Homunculus (should he ever be freed from the stone) IN the town -- he can move in time, but only limitedly in space.

Homunculus is so weak that he risks letting Eike use these energy sources to fuel the digipad (maybe he even thinks he's being clever). But contact with these sources is part of what helps Eike negate Homunculus's memory-wipe spell and get himself into the Extra Endings.

[fov]

the energy balls are mentioned in the game, and eike does know that he needs them. in chapter 3:

Spoiler:

When Eike questions H's powers, H sends eike back to the day that Dana was born... without any power crystals. after the cutscene the digipad glows but eike isn't able to use it. he says something like "i *had* something before... what was it?" then he has to find a powerball before he's able to get back to the present.

so, in this case H. uses the power crystals (and his ability to take them away) as a way of demonstrating his superiority...

-emily

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by Becky

I don't remember if they were mentioned in the game. You're right, Eike doesn't seem to be aware of their presence.

The only place I could think of them being mentioned is the chapter where Homunculus throws Eike back in time with an empty digipad and tells him to figure things out on his own. I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and trigger the scene and see if Homunculus actually mentions the power balls.

Come to think of it, I think you're right -- I think H alludes to it, but doesn't mention the powerballs. That is right after you and H get into a discussion at The Brum Library or whatever it is.

[MysterD]

Originally Posted by fov

the energy balls are mentioned in the game, and eike does know that he needs them. in chapter 3:

Spoiler:

When Eike questions H's powers, H sends eike back to the day that Dana was born... without any power crystals. after the cutscene the digipad glows but eike isn't able to use it. he says something like "i *had* something before... what was it?" then he has to find a powerball before he's able to get back to the present.

so, in this case H. uses the power crystals (and his ability to take them away) as a way of demonstrating his superiority...

-emily

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.

Ooooh....I forgot about that.

Yuh, I think that Eike does know they exist now....

[Becky]

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.

Yes, descendents do seem to be identical to their ancestors in this town. Maybe they've perfected cloning instead of the standard method of reproduction.

[Becky]

Is anybody else having trouble with page 2 loading slowly? Have I overdone the proliferation of spoiler tags on the page?

[fov]

Yes, descendents do seem to be identical to their ancestors in this town. Maybe they've perfected cloning instead of the standard method of reproduction.

i read something funny in a review... the reviewer attributed them "clones" to laziness on the part of the developers!

personally, i thought it was neat... i liked the reincarnation and repetition that the "clones" suggested. adds another dimension to the Other Worlds theory... not only are there multiple universes where different stories are unfolding, but the same story (with variations) also unfolds in different timeperiods...

sorry, i hadn't noticed above that the question was whether H. ever mentions the energy balls. i don't think he does. which makes chapter 3 interesting in that it ties eike (the main character... but also the player's portal to the gameworld) to the game manual (which only exists in our world, outside of the gameworld). eike is aware of the energy balls but doens't really understand them... when he picks them up, we don't see a cutscene the way we do when he acquires other items. it's almost as if in chapter 3 eike gets *this close* to realizing he's a character in a video game... but he never actually makes the connection. the only other place he seems to realize who he really is is in the EX ending, when he's able to remember things across "other worlds"...

-emily

ps becky, the page is loading fine for me. and great job with the summaries! thank you!

[MysterD]

Are you saying that in the EX Ending....

Spoiler:

When we see Eike die after saving Dr Wagner's wife, his soul reincarnates into the other Eike's body into anothe world?

It could make sense, by the final lines where it says on scene
"Start a new life....wihtout regrets"

[fov]

I was really confused by the EX ending. I read in a walkthrough that

Spoiler:

in the EX ending Eike is younger (as you can tell from his clothes), so it's obviously not the same Eike.

it didn't seem this way to me. but the EX ending is different from what we've come to believe, in that

Spoiler:

eike is friends with the two guys who run him down in the C ending... as far as we know, in the "worlds" we've played, eike wasn't friends with those guys, nor did he even know them...

so maybe eike has reincarnated into another eike in another world? OR, maybe the eike we see in the EX ending is

Spoiler:

a descendant of helena and wagner/eike

which is why he looks like "our" eike, and why he could only come into being after things have been resolved in the EX ending.

??

-emily

[Becky]

Not just clones, but also reincarnates?

Spoiler:

In a few more generations, some reincarnate of Dana will find the stone in the tree and give it to her father and the whole process starts over again, ending again in Humunculus being put back in the stone? Interesting idea.

If the town is stuck in this loop, I can see why Homunculus really might get desperate enough to try to break the cycle by letting Eike travel in time. He might become frustrated enough to put a version of Wagner (Eike) on the scene where Wagner/Eike's never been before and then wait to see what happens.

I wonder what happens when a stranger wanders into town. Is that a threat to the perfect gene pool?

This is a stranger trying to get in through the city gate. They won't let him in because they don't want generations of yellow, bodiless neighbors.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 5

MysterD -- What is everybody's fav. ending in SOD?
Fav. death?
Fav. character?

Becky -- Fav death -- the tower. It was eerie standing there knowing that someone was about to come up from behind....
Fav character -- Homunculus. Fortune Teller a close second.
Fav ending -- D was most spectacular.

MysterD -- Fav. death(s)

Spoiler:

I really liked the poison death and the tower death. The poison was just a nasty way to die.

The tower death made me cringe and go "Damn!" It was indeed eerie and well done.

My favorite character(s)

Spoiler:

Homunculus stole the show. That was my fav. character PERIOD. For females, I loved Margarete since the start.

My favorite ending

Spoiler:

Ending A. Since I first met Margarete, I wanted Eike to end up with her.

In a close second, I really loved the ending where Hugo is killed in the house his mother Helena's spirit is stuck in.

Most shocking moment

Spoiler:

Eike is Wagner -- Ending D. Never saw it coming.

Becky -- Most shocking moment: When the identity of the murderer is revealed. I wonder how many people guessed the truth beforehand.

fov -- My fav. death was the tower. I really liked that

Spoiler:

you had to go back to the 1900s for the rope, because otherwise it was too old.

Fav ending were ends A and D. A best but D is a close second.

Favorite character was Dana. I just thought she was spunky...and cute! I wish she were in the game more.

Biggest surprise for me was

Spoiler:

that Dana and Margarete had been switched at birth.

I really liked how details from the different endings started coming together after you learned that....

MysterD -- Murderer --

Spoiler:

I never wouldn't guessed of all people it was Hugo. It was hinted in the chapter in which he is caught starting the fire. If you pay attention to the clothes of the person running off -- even if it's very very very brief.

Plus, he is who is whining to have his grandpa saved in the fire -- twist is, how many paid much attention to the whining kid?

fov -- actually, I did pay attention to the whining kid...when I first met Hugo, I thought

Spoiler:

the kid at the fire must have been his descendant.

Here's a question about the poison -- who do you think poisoned Eike? The arm we see is wearing a white shirt -- so it's not the pink sleeved girl walking down the stairs -- is it Hugo? Or Mr. Eckert? And regardless, how could one of them have sneaked in and put the poison in the food without the bar guy or the pink-sleeved girl noticing/bumping into him?

And another question about the events leading up to endings A-D -- What has Margarete been doing in the present while Hugo is running around trying to kill Eike? In most of the endings, they both traveled back to "the night before" together -- where is she during the fire?

MysterD --

Spoiler:

If you pay attention, it looks like the arm could have come from OVER the railing. In other words, he wasn't going up or down the stairs.

And I think it was Hugo, for that matter -- since he wore white and since Eckert only tried to kill Eike off the tower, according to Eckert's speech before Chapter 8 begins.

fov -- I was thinking that (spoilers about pretty much every death)

Spoiler:

Eckert says the tower was his only attempt, it means it was the only attempt he remembers, because some of the other attempts Eike was able to avoid by changing history. When Eike says "did you stab me too?" Eckert says "no" -- and since the (second) stabbing did happen, but was blocked by the steel plate, that must have been Hugo.

I guess the poison is another time that the event itself didn't change, but Eike found a way to protect himself. I'm still not sure about Chapter 2 though -- I guess that could have been Eckert since he was standing right next to the tree. In Chapter 3 it's Eckert who drops the vase on Eike's head -- but I'm not sure if that was an accident or on purpose. And who's driving the car in Chapter 6? Where did Hugo learn to drive?

MysterD --

Spoiler:

Eckert would only be after Eike once Hugo began blackmailing Eckert -- I don't think that began really 'til Chapter 7.

I think Eckert was there [at the Chapter 2 death by the tree] to throw us off. I think Hugo did it -- guy moves too quick off the tree to be Eckert.

[Chapter 6 death]...how hard is it for [Hugo] to learn to drive? I mean, you hit the gas and go if you gonna' run someone over! Hugo would pick it up quickly, if he could build something such as a time machine...Plus, whoever drove it drove it uncontrollably and like a maniac.

fov --

Spoiler:

Eckert would only be after Eike once Hugo began blackmailing Eckert -- I don't think that began really 'til Chapter 7.

Hmm. I had been thinking that ever since the game started for us, the blackmail had been in place. That Eckert called Eike over to the museum at the beginning because he had already spoken with Hugo, and that his first attempt on Eike's life would be during the day, when Eike came over to look at the paintings.

It's a paradox though -- blackmail can't happen until after we've played through Chapter Five, but the whole day (all the killings, I mean) is set in motion by Hugo being in the present, which means that Hugo already has traveled forward in time (to the day before), which means he has already spoken to Eckert...

I have wondered all along: when Eike finds Hugo's time machine, why can't he go back to the day that Hugo went back to? Then he could stop the whole cycle by preventing Hugo from starting the killing. (Or is it because Homunculus controls the digipad, that Homunculus didn't want Eike going back to the day before the present because it could prevent delivery of the philosopher's stone?)

Becky --

Spoiler:

The poisoner had to be Hugo because the poison was only available in the past -- the antidote was also only available in the past. After watching the poisoning about four times, it looked to me like the arm came THROUGH the railing and the bar tender/owner was distracted at the moment by the woman in pink and didn't see it done.

I've been wondering -- how does the Fortune Teller always know the fatal hour?

Also,

Spoiler:

Was Dana fated to find the stone? The stone stays in her possession for almost the entire game. We even see her holding it in the painting. And in the Extra ending when Eike remembers that he SHOULD have the stone, Dana still manages to have stumbled across it!

If Dana is fated to find the stone, then the baby switch actually shot Homunculus in the foot because it removed the stone's discoverer from the time period where the stone was able to free him.

MysterD -- About Poison:

Spoiler:

Yeah -- it had to be Hugo...Eike got the antidote from the era Hugo lived in -- he got it from Margarete.

About the Driver -- I agree. That had to be Hugo...And from that reaction of Franssen, it looks like Franssen reacted as if the person STOLE his car.

I've been wondering -- how does the Fortune Teller always know the fatal hour?

She called Ms. Cleo.

Original Thread -- Entry 5 ends here

[fov]

Originally Posted by Becky

This is a stranger trying to get in through the city gate. They won't let him in because they don't want generations of yellow, bodiless neighbors.

LOL!!

you bring up an interesting point. why do we keep seeing the same people over and over? you'd think at some point, freckled guy or overalls guy or SOMEONE would leave town, or someone new might move in. is the idea that the same people keep getting mixed up in each other's lives throughout the generations? (i.e., some people might enter and leave, but fransen, eike, eckert, etc. are destined to keep bumping into each other?)

and if you believe ending D...

Spoiler:

why has eike been wandering around this town for 500 years? it's not like it's that big... why hasn't he moved on?

is something keeping him there? he's carrying the stone and the stone can't be taken too far from its source of power/origin, maybe?

how about this -- CAN people enter or leave this town?

there is a twilight zone episode where some guy keeps trying to leave town and he can't. at the end of the episode the camera pans out and you see he's actually in a cage... being kept as a pet by some aliens (or something). there's a similar premise in tierra's king's quest 2 remake... at the end, you learn that (WARNING - KQ2+ SPOILER FOLLOWS!)

Spoiler:

the tower realm where valanice is being held is actually contained within a "snow globe" inside hagatha's cave

similarly, could the Shadow of Destiny town be

Spoiler:

contained within some kind of field in H.'s realm? maybe on one of the bookshelves?

i'm only half joking... it's odd to me that the town is so self contained, and the townspeople seem to know nothing of the outside world...

the only mention of the outside world comes in some of the endings, when

Spoiler:

hugo mentions that his time machine is parked outside the town limits, so no one would get suspicious

i remember that seeming very strange to me when he said it... possibly because until that point, i'd been led to believe that there wasn't anything outside the town limits?

hmm... i like the idea that the same scenario is being played through over and over, throughout time, in an attempt to finally get it right... and that that scenario is physicially contained in one distinct place...

-emily

[Becky]

Hey Emily -- you might want to make the King's Quest 2 spoiler a bit more obvious that it's a big KQ2 spoiler. I was so used to thinking: SOD spoilers that I read it before I realized what it really was.

oops! Forgot my own spoiler tags:

Spoiler:

I think Eike DID leave the town for all those centuries. I think that's why Homunculus looks so excited when he finally does show up in the square at the beginning of the game. Notice that H turns sharply BEFORE he actually sees Eike -- I think he senses the presence of the stone, rather than first recognizing Eike.

If Hugo can park his time machine outside the town -- and he brought Margaret with him in certain scenarios -- then both of them can get outside the city limits. Maybe everyone CAN leave -- they just somehow rarely choose to. Except H, that is. If H could leave he would have pursued Eike outside the town centuries ago.

And I think the stone does somehow continue to exert an influence over Eike even though he is unaware of it. It's TRYING to get back to its owner. (Sorry, couldn't resist that.)