[Intrepid Homoludens]

I take it that's NOT #47, right?

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

An adv game is the gradual unfolding of a story by a player by exploration and problem solving techniques, without resorting to violent means. That is as succinct as I can make it.

FGM

So explain how to beat Full Throttle without using violent means.

[Moron Lite]

Originally Posted by Jake

People need to go back and read Moron Lite's recent post because it seems to have been buried. Walter speaks the truth. Or at least a few grades away from the pure definition of the truth.

Well thankee, Jake! I wish it was coalescing into a more coherent, overall point, but not yet anyway.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

So explain how to beat Full Throttle without using violent means.

Full Throttle lets you cheat past the realtime puzzles if you want to.

In Full Throttle's case I don't really mind that because those realtime puzzles are really poorly implimented ... They're a pain to play regardless of now novel their concept is "in theory." Whoever thought it would be a good idea to use SCUMM to write a destruction derby or motorcycle fighting game had a few screws loose (or had a very tight grip on the pursestrings... oh yeah it was a LucasArts game wasn't it)...

Anyway moving on

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by Jake

Full Throttle lets you cheat past the realtime puzzles if you want to.

True, but even if you ignore the fighting sequences, some of the normal adventure gaming involves violent means. Such as kicking in a doorway on a man, or slamming a bartender down on the bar by yanking on his nose ring.

[Jake]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

True, but even if you ignore the fighting sequences, some of the normal adventure gaming involves violent means. Such as kicking in a doorway on a man, or slamming a bartender down on the bar by yanking on his nose ring.

I don't think FGM was referring to point and click commands like "Pull > Nosering" and "Kick > Door" when she talked about violent gameplay. She probably meant more kinetic things like games that have a "punch" button.

[JoeX111]

Originally Posted by Jake

I don't think FGM was referring to point and click commands like "Pull > Nosering" and "Kick > Door" when she talked about violent gameplay. She probably meant more kinetic things like games that have a "punch" button.

Full Throttle had a kick button, didn't it?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Moron Walter Lite

Story, exploration and puzzles can work, not as necessary and sufficient conditions, but as features that increase membership in the adventure game category. This is getting into some of what I wanted to say but didn't get around to, which is graded membership. For a lot of categories in life, we have a prototypical example in mind (if I said "automobile", you'd likely think of a sedan), and rate things as being strongly, moderately, or weakly in the same category depending on how many features they have in common.

Genre dialogue is what motivates the disappearance, repetition, or introduction of various features. If we'd gone straight from text adventures to Sam & Max Hit the Road, there might have been some dispute over whether Sam & Max was really an adventure game or not. But the introduction of various new features over time expanded what sorts of features could determine membership, to the point where Sam & Max could be unambiguously classified as an adventure game.

Genre dialogue is like 'tradition' or 'historical behaviour', isn't it?

This relates to my idea about the genre being malleable contrary to people thinking its requisite is written in stone. The 'definition' shifts and changes over time, not into something else entirely, but into something less concrete and more porous, retaining its essence but broadening the details to encompass whatever kinds of deviant behaviour each new succession of games exhibits.

Some features have greater weight than others, though, and story appears to be the big one. I guess we could actually say it's a necessary condition.

How is the story maintained, though? That's one thing I'm trying to get at. If it is maintained through dialogue, challenges (puzzles), exploration, etc., then surely these details carry some level of importance, some level of necessity. The story's prominence and pervasiveness depend on them, shouldn't that affect the level of their relevence in how the genre is defined?

[Fairygdmther]

For everything we decide, there will always be exceptions. However, as long as the definition fits the vast majority of the games, it may be considered a viable definition. If there is a minimal amount of violence, but otherwise it fits the definition - most will agree it is still an adv game. I've never seen one without puzzles/challenges, but I would have a hard time calling it an adventure without that element.

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Fairygdmther

For everything we decide, there will always be exceptions. However, as long as the definition fits the vast majority of the games, it may be considered a viable definition. If there is a minimal amount of violence, but otherwise it fits the definition - most will agree it is still an adv game. I've never seen one without puzzles/challenges, but I would have a hard time calling it an adventure without that element.

You're talking about a common denominator.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

You're talking about a common denominator.

and what is a definition, but a common denominator?

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Exactly. Thus definitions have their epistomological boundaries determined by some kind of conceptual history. What are those boundaries as applied to the adventure game?

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Exactly. Thus definitions have their epistomological boundaries. What are those boundaries as applied to the adventure game?

Every epistemologist knows that words evolve, as do concepts. Setting boundaries is limiting unnecessarily what the definition should be. We don't want to limit, but rather have an elastic boundary that will take into account future evolutions of the genre.

FGM

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Wooo!! That's exactly what my definition is saying!!

Oh, and that's also what the cute little doggie said.

[remixor]

Originally Posted by JoeX111

Full Throttle had a kick button, didn't it?

No, it has a kick command, which I'm sure if you were being less pedantic you would admit is actually a different thing. You can't just walk around kicking stuff. Like Jake said, you have to specifically execute a Kick>Door command; it's no different than the Push of older SCUMM games.

[Moron Lite]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Genre dialogue is like 'tradition' or 'historical behaviour', isn't it?

This relates to my idea about the genre being malleable contrary to people thinking its requisite is written in stone. The 'definition' shifts and changes over time, not into something else entirely, but into something less concrete and more porous, retaining its essence but broadening the details to encompass whatever kinds of deviant behaviour each new succession of games exhibits.

Agreed. I just like calling it a dialogue, though, 'cause it succinctly captures the idea that there are back and forth and forward motions going on, and that it's often the case that designers look at what people are doing in other games of the same genre and reacting to that somehow in their own games.

How is the story maintained, though? That's one thing I'm trying to get at. If it is maintained through dialogue, challenges (puzzles), exploration, etc., then surely these details carry some level of importance, some level of necessity. The story's prominence and pervasiveness depend on them, shouldn't that affect the level of their relevence in how the genre is defined?

I'm tempted to say graded membership is relevant here, but I'm too tired to figure it out.

[Fairygdmther]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Wooo!! That's exactly what my definition is saying!!

Oh, and that's also what the cute little doggie said.

My definition -
An adv game is the gradual unfolding of a story by a player by exploration and problem solving techniques, without resorting to violent means.
adds the caveat that violent means should not be necessary or even desired. It also adds to the initial premise that story is the defining element.


FGM

[Jake]

Kick > Trep and Walter

[Moron Lite]

Awk!

[Moron Lite]

This is some crazy thread you started, Jake! It's all your fault!!!