If he indeed means that the basis for his opinion seemed to be more in the skills of the people making the amateur games*. He apparently thinks that the graphics in Apprentice II aren't any good. Or that the music in Apprentice II isn't any good. Or that the puzzles and writing in 5 Days a Stranger aren't any good. I couldn't disagree more. Many commercial games are worse off in those categories. BTW, AudioSoldier, did you like the music in Cirque de Zale? That bip-bip-bip-bop-bop-bop -music? Moreover, how was the game near commercial quality, in your opinion?

*Because the term fan-game is misleading in this context, as it more often means a sequel to a known franchise than an original game, I'm going to use the term amateur game.

I give up. Fangames are the crappiest thing on the planet. :crazy:

Why not a superb amateur game?

are you people STILL talking about the same thing!!!!!!:crazy:

That is generally what happens within individual topics, yes ;)...

Ask Spitfire.

Eh? Don't drag me into this conversation, I've had enough about talking about something that really doesn't make a difference. Think whatever you will of fan games, everyone has their own opinion.

END OF STORY.

:crazy:

Uh...OK...

"There are tons of freeware and/or cheap comercial engines, programs, etc... All good enough to make a superb comercial game. Look at Ankh for example, they're using a free engine and managed to pull off an amazing looking game."

Uh...why no mention of fangames if you're such an avid lover?

Will you two cool it please. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's sick of reading you two bickering.

I think he meant to say that you can use those resources to make a good commercial game, and that amateur developers have the very same resources, so it can't be up to the resources.

Anyway, I'm kinda lost here, as I can't tell you when you people are being sarcastic and when not, so let me repeat: what are those "tools of the trade" you mentioned?

I *think* this is what he meant by "tools of the trade", Wormsie.

So, AudioSoldier, are you saying that those who make fan amateur games aren't talented enough to make enjoyable games?

This is what he said.

As someone who actually KNOWS a thing or two about the game industry, I disagree. Again, I recommend reading the Scratchware Manifesto.

Is it just me or is this conversation going around in circles? Or figure-eights, if you prefer?

EDIT: Read this too.

I'm not going to try to argue; plenty of others have already engaged in debate, and I wouldn't be doing anybody any good by jumping in.

Instead, I'll list why I love fan games, and why I value them.

The story may not be perfect, the graphics may be low-resolution pixel art, and the sound and music may be all but non-existant, but none of that matters. What matters to me is how entertaining the game is. If the author toiled for months and months on something that looks and plays like King's Quest 1 AGI, big deal? If it's fun and entertaining and keeps me going to the end, I love it. I don't look for things like high-quality visuals or surrealistic sounds. I look for how much fun the game is. To me, it doesn't matter how good an artist or writer they have, as long as they leave me wanting more. And more often than not, that's exactly how I feel when I play one.

These games are made by people with a passion for the genre I grew up loving. They pour their hearts into game design, and toil for months just to put a file on the internet and hope people like it. That's very respectable in and of itself, imho, and why I love the amateur community -- there are people working on free games just to keep this glorious genre alive and kicking where all others have pushed us away. And more often than not, the product of their relentless work is something fun and engaging and totally entertaining, not for a profit, just for the sake of being entertaining. And that's awesome.

I'm reminded of this article by ex-Underground Co-Editor Dave Gilbert...

Thanks for the link to that great article. You guys should really read the whole thing. There are a bunch of quotes from Schafer including his thoughts on digital distribution, some shockingly low Psychonauts sales figures, and the discussion on how it is impossible to pitch innovation to publishers.

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/action/...ml?sid=6141519

I recommend for everyone to read all the articles above, specially the scratchware one. I now have much more respect for fan games/freeware/indie games. The article speaks nothing but truth.

This thread = nominee for most f**king retarded and pointless argument ever. :crazy:

All in favor, say I.

Exactly how do we define fan games? For example, is any free game a fan game? are indie games made by small teams or one man operations a fan game?