Video Games as Art: Heavy Rain & Riven
 

I finished playing Heavy Rain this weekend.

My thought hasn't been is this the best adventure game of the year, but is it the best game of all-time. (my personal opinion, of course).

To say I loved the game would be an understatement, I was positively shocked by how brilliant it was – and that it did something that is all-too-rare in the interactive fiction world of computer games, it made you emotionally involved. And it did it in the third person.

I loved the characters and was nearly hyper-ventilating at the conclusion. At 5 am in the morning after playing all night.

Even better, the characters were fully fleshed out, real characters with real problems, and lived in a world filled with shades of grey. The dialogue was acted brilliantly, like no other game I've experienced, and the graphics are mind-blowing.

I have one minor complaint and that's simply that the science fiction eyewear that Jayden has seems a bit out of place for a game going to such lengths to occur in the real world.

What else can I say? I've waited years for a game like Heavy Rain. It's no surprise that it's the adventure genre that delivers it to us.

So – I've always said Riven is the best game of all-time, because of both the complex issues and emotional immersion it presents. Now, I couldn't tell you which I think is better, Riven or Heavy Rain.

What do these two games have that's so special? Neithers narratives are groundbreaking on their own (though I'll hand it to the Millers that the Myst universe is a brilliantly well-conceived fantasy environment), noir thrillers have certainly existed before and the themes in Riven are straight out of Heart of Darkness.

What's unusual is they make you feel these stories. The horror of what Gehn has done, or the tense anxiety of trying to save your child. So many games have attempted this, and so few have succeeded. The game succeed in making you feel as if you are a part of the action, Riven does this by making you the main character, Heavy Rain by allowing you to emotionally sympathize with the characters, and allowing your direction to so significantly shape its conclusion.

I've played it twice, the first time blowing most of the important moments and getting to the absolute worst endings (really, the bad endings are baaaad) and once with the possible best endings. I had to play it again to see the characters have better outcomes – I cared about them so much.

It's why I consider Heavy Rain to join the very small list of games I consider true art (it's up to 2 now). I'm sad the experience is over and games like this are so rare, because for one weekend I was reminded of what the medium is capable of.

One last point, neither game is condescending and both don't flinch from examining mature themes. As much as I love adventure gamers, I'm tired of some of the unsuccessful attempts (especially the third wall breaking) at juvenile humor and how the games are often written for what seems like a grade school audience.

Those of us who grew up with Atari 2600s want games that reflect our own maturity!*





* or immaturity as the case may be.

I think you mean "mature content." There were no themes in this game (which I didn't recognize from your description, since, with respect, it's the worst game I've played this console generation [not that I seek out bad games, so it's relative]). May I make a suggestion? http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/lov.../lovedelic.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love-de-Lic Don't forget its spin-off companies, Skip, Vanpool, and Punchline.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376513 I wrote that about their best game, and an Internet friend wrote http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/moon/index.html . Skip to the end of mine to learn about their other games. Moon is very text-heavy and in Japanese (as are nearly all of the spinoffs' games), but you could still get parts of it from Wikipedia and GameFAQs. Love-De-Lic's other 2 games are 99% text-free, though, so you could play them today. They're brilliant graphic adventure games and I highly recommend them. Both tell far better stories with far more skill than Heavy Rain or Riven. If you don't want to buy/emulate them, you can watch them here: http://www.youtube.com/user/SketchesOfMoondays You seem like you're interested in the maturation of video games, so you'd like to catch up on (in my opinion) the frontrunners. Bonus: they did in the graphic adventure genre!

Seems you misunderstand that "Mature Themes" are. Content generally means the way the world is presented to the player. Themes result in the sort of characters, story, and concept being told. Something more of art, than typical Anime-esque storytelling.

I definitely meant "mature themes." The games tackle ideas of ethnocentricity (Riven) and morality (Heavy Rain). Although Riven is set in a fantasy universe, the ideas presented are both personal and political. In Heavy Rain, the idea of "how far would you go...?" for the people you love is an intriguing exploration.

I will definitely check out the games you mentioned, though I have to admit a bit of confusion - you consider Heavy Rain to be "the worst game I've played this console generation" while I consider it to be potentially the best computer game OF ALL-TIME. Seems like we might have very different opinions.

I am very interested in the maturation of computer games, especially when they approach the level of art. I've really only played two that day, and both of those, I think are in their own league. I wouldn't flinch from saying David Cage and the Millers border on genius for these two works.

Heavy Rain certainly hits a lot of the right notes, but it is by no means a perfect game. The voice acting in parts, especially the children, can be downright bad. Some of the accents, like that of the prostitute, are very poor impersonations. And there's the gaping plot hole regarding

Spoiler:

Ethan's blackouts.

Cage is an inexperienced writer, but he's getting better. Indigo Prophecy was abysmal in the story-telling department, so the leap from one game to the other is pretty substantial. If there's one thing you can give him credit for, it's that Heavy Rain does tension better than just about any game out there.

It's funny how much venom and hyberbole this tends to attract on adventure forums. "The worst game of this generation?" Give me a break. I'd need ten hands to count the number of horrendous budget titles released over the past five years.

I can understand why some people say that, simply because for some Heavy Rain isn't a game, but a interactive movie, so if you see it simply as a game it could be a bad one, cause its mechanics are so simplistic, almost non existent. I didnt' play Heavy Rain, i'm just stating what some gamers think.

It's still a video game. Even (and excuse the comparison) Dragon's Lair is still a video game. If I had to compare it to anything, it would be a Bioware RPG with none of the combat but all of the choice. To call it the worst of this generation is typical internet nerd hyberbole.

That's generalizing. If someone feels that way, then they do. I could say the same about ppl who call it the best game ever, and generalize, just like you.

There are thousands of different video games, and that's what they all are, despite how much you actually get to interact with the program. How good they are, is a completely different matter. I wouldn't call any game good no matter how great the graphics and story were if you're mostly just sitting there pushing the buttons like a robot, just to reveal more of the story. Just release the damn game as an animated film and the effect is exactly the same.

I am not generalizing when I say that calling Heavy Rain the worst game of this generation is hyperbole. That is far too strong a statement. Have you seen the amount of shovelware that gets dumped on the Wii at a near constant basis? Or the amount of crap in the very genre this site represents?

I have to wonder how much thought anyone puts into regurgiting the "animated film" argument. Player interaction is utterly crucial. This is not a movie. It is a game. Player choice is something film simply cannot do. You share the remorse your characters experience because those choices (or, perhaps more importantly, mistakes) are yours to make. You could boil any game down to "pushing buttons like a robot." Rock Band is exactly that, but the experience is significantly more complex.

Again, it's an opinion and if someone feels this is the worst game they've ever played, then that's their opinion, and doesn't not equal what you said.

Interactive movie a term that has been thrown around a lot when talking about David Cage and his games. So, yes, it's more like a film that anything, and yes, it'd be possible to convert this into a proper film where a person watching it could affect the story by clicking the OK button on his DVD player remote when choosing what he wants the character to do. I'm sure it's been done before and it'd be easy (especially for blu ray discs), yet for some, utterly pointless. So, naturally an option for "just watch the damn film, don't interact with it" should be available.

Another thing, I don't see the point of giving examples of other games that are all about pushing the buttons but not REALLY interacting with the software. As I said, I do not like such games, I do not play such games and I do not rate such games well. It's a question of an opinion.

Its an opinion, but 1+1=2 isn't an opinion. By comparing facts, you can learn that Heavy Rain isn't the worst game. In order to make this argument factual, we would have to compare it to what GhaleonQ thinks are good games.

Then again, we'd have to make the argument for the sake of facts and not opinions. In the end, it was all about opinions, so it really doesn't matter.

Most of the things said on most of the internet forums doesn't really matter, but it's a way to kill time. In any case, there's no such thing as a fact when it comes to personal opinions. If this person said he / she thinks the game is the worst ever, then we already know the answer to your question. He is the one holding the opinion and doing the comparing, and therefor his opinion is indeed a fact--- for him.

I don't think anyone can FACTUALLY claim "This is the worst game in the history of video games, and that's it".

I wasn't even going to reply to this thread, but someone above called this game a button masher :crazy:. And I thought that term is used exclusively for a selection of action games, I guess time has changed... :pan:

Now that makes more sense, sorry I feel like I needed to add that in... Anyway I just don't understand why this game is such a magnet for negativity. And again, those who have not played the game just need to shut it. You're making us adventure gamers look bad...:r

Attacking/defending Heavy Rain was not the point of this thread. In fact, this was a thread for people who loved Heavy Rain, like myself, to question whether it approaches the realm of true art - is it an interactive Double Indemnity or Silence of the Lambs?

Is it as good as Riven in exploring mature themes and inviting the player to become emotionally involved?

If you don't like Heavy Rain, fine, but blast it in the "HR is not an adventure game" thread. My personal opinion is that the "it's not an adventure game," "it's an interactive movie," arguments are not only wrong, they're pointless - I'm more concerned with the aesthetics, how we get there and how they're presented are certainly part of the game, but in this case, the way the game allows you to interact with the characters, especially how the tension of the game is matched by the tension of hitting a sequence of buttons completely works for me.

And saying it's the worst game of this console generation is both an opinion AND hyperbole.

So - seriously, is Heavy Rain art? I say yes.

I hope this isn't taken as a personal attack or anything but I find your response incredibly childish. Had I not played Heavy Rain, I wouldn't be discussing it. As it was marketed as an adventure game, I wanted to play it. Had I known more about it I would've not bought it.

I find that very funny as David Cage himself has used that term when talking about either one of his games. BTW, I was not and will not "attack" Heavy Rain. I was talking about generalizing other people's opinions.

Ok, so it's an interactive movie. It still has more possible outcomes than any King's Quest game (ie, more than 1). That being said, again, it's not the point of this thread. This thread is discuss whether Heavy Rain belongs in the echelon of games considered true art - as transcending just entertainment.

You disagree - instead of arguing what genre of game you think it belongs to (whether it's an adventure game or not doesn't mean it's good or bad) - why do you think it fails as art?

I believe it is exactly what an adventure game should be, and that it is, like Riven, true art, and I cannot wait for Quantic Dream's next project.

Well I'm not here to argue about what is an adventure game and what is not, the only reason I ever commented was because someone was making really one sided comments about other member's opinion.

I can completely understand if someone doesn't like this game because it is very much different then most stuff out there. Im actually suprised at how successful the game has been mostly because of the lack of action gameplay.

I know its your opinion calling it the worst console game ever but...really? Maybe ive grown tired of most action games but games like god of war 3 or bad company 2 (which get rave reviews) consists of one gameplay mechanic and uses it for it entirety just bores me now a days. I mean they can be fun for a few hours but just running around hitting the x button to kill monsters is gameplay but to me its boring gameplay. Heavy Rain has a few flaws but the overall package to me gives me a unique and fun experience I dont see too often.

Alot of casual gamers like mindless fun and games like god of war, call of duty, darksiders and other action titles are good for just shutting your brain off and hitting a few buttons. But they are not art (maybe art in the visual department) and a game like Heavy rain, no matter how flawed the story is at times, actually makes you think and contemplate the decisions you have to make.

As I stated before I know its your opinion that this is the worst game but can you explain your opinion why this game is worse then God of war, call of duty, prince of persia, resident evil 5, dark siders and dynasty warriors. These games consist primarily of one gameplay style and you repeat it over and over again. Heavy rain may lack traditional gameplay and im actually suprised this many people actually enjoy it for this fact alone. I mean how is making moral choices worse then a bunch of games that revolve around traditional gameplay of hitting two buttons over and over again? And I know there are games out there like dragon age and mass effect that also mix moral choices and traditional gameplay but Im comparing 90% of the console games to Heavy Rain and asking for your opinion to why you think they are all so superior to heavy Rain.

Not true at all. To make a factual claim, you have to have content, and games have lots of content to compare. From gameplay features to production values.

Even if I hate a game, I won't call it the worst game ever. Why? Because the game may still compare really well to predecessors and the norm of the genre.

You can't fight opinion, but you can fight facts if they are false, without looking like a dumbass.

Then again, this has no place in the discussion. Comparing games to Art is pretty much a lost cause. Art isn't defined factually. Its an emotional experience, and I have to say Heavy Rain and Riven have fulfilled that sort of thing.

Let me check if i got this one right...

Heavy Rain is, say, the western equivalent of those visual novels they make by the hundreds in the land of sushi and horny tentacles, just in 3D and with some extra meaningless interaction thrown in as for the player to do something other than bore herself to death while waiting for the important and life altering choices to come by, yes? And, somehow, this is truly innovative. And, somehow, this turns the, say, thing into a true, honest to God, adventure game. And, somehow, pressing the button when prompt to brush my teeth is deeper and more intellectually challenging than pressing the very same button when prompt to not fall into a hole full of really sharp and nasty looking spikes in that hellriser guy's Jericho game. And, somehow, this makes a pretty awful plotline about killers and magic sci-fi googles turn into a truly emotionally compelling and intellectually deep tale. And, somehow, all those truly amazing, and i would venture to say miraculous, accomplishments elevate the medium of videogames to those very same heights, say, Cosmology of Kyoto, Pathologic, The Void, and Faust tried to reach and failed, that of True Art (tm).

Or, say, someone got a bit carried away and forgot to take her meds, and it wasn't me for once. My money's on this one, i have to say.

No matter how narrow minded the argument, there's a kernel of truth... There have hardly been video games released as the intention to be high art... or equally seen as high art.

Sure there's 'new media' art but not even Heavy Rain or even something like Facade or Flower be seen in the same light or the same 'cultural value'(?) as a Duchamp or a Lichtenstein without producing some sneers and giggles at the notion.

It's really odd though because there's no problem with claiming video game music as art or pixel art... as art. However, a big stink is caused when interactivity enters the equation. The answer is - of course, there probably is and will be video or computer games that will be pure art. It's not really something I worry about though - but it would be cool to one day go into an art gallery or museum to view a great interactive digital art exhibition, which is what the movement will be called undoubtedly.

The 1 game that I consider as a true art form is ICO. No other game come close...

I'm not exactly sure what the point is making a personal dig at the end, ne'er'the less, I'll respond to the rest.

(also, I'm not a she.)

You use art as the definition of high, traditional art - which is true, but I also think films such as Double Indemnity qualify as well. I'd agree that it's difficult to qualify what art is, but I think a lot of people would say, like Riven, the ambition here was to approach that lofty concept, to use the medium of computer gaming to develop and explore adult, moral themes, and also to work to have the player emotionally engage with the characters and story.

Obviously, it didn't work for everybody, but I'd be hard pressed not to think that history will be kind to this game (but I just read a review that said "Martian Memorandum is the equivalent of films becoming talkies" from 199something, so who knows? - and it's not like Riven is hailed as the revolution it was at the time)

I'd argue that when it comes to the definition of art in computer games, unlike a fictional work, success isn't measured solely in the plot. It's hugely important, but it also should be weighted with how much emotional involvement is interactive, ie, how much the way the story is told truly involves the player - a simpler plot which might not work as a book/film can work for a game. Think about the first King's Quest - it'd be a mess of a story, but worked as a game.

As games become more sophisticated, so do the stories - and Heavy Rain, like Riven, represents a truly quantum leap in both the involvement of the player and the maturity of the themes it represents.

I understand some people don't think the game mechanics (ie, the "QTEs") didn't work for them. They certainly did for me, I had worried about it, and thought the execution, along with the ability to change the direction of the story were revolutionary.

I think the passions evoked by this game are evidence of its quality, or at least, that we all recognize that the game means something for the evolution of computer gaming.

First, don't worry. It wasn't a personal attack at the end, it just seems most people here take my overly melodramatic, ridiculously superlative, kind of rambling style of writing as a personal insult while i just write like that because i found very entertaining to do so. And in any case if you pay attention it was more of a jab to me ("for once") than to you, but sorry if it bothered you. I'll try to write as a normal person since you are all super mean to me.

Now, i actually think you are right on the medium of games being able to be, like, High Art. Or Art. Or whatever. The problem, though, is that both Art and Maturity are not defined by Themes but by the way those Themes are aproached. And sure, Heavy Rain did some things right but i kind of think it is getting out of control by now. As i said it didn't do anything new and Japanese visual novels have been doing this very same thing for over nine thousand years or so, and have already refined the entire concept to a point Heavy Rain looks like a really amateur effort we if take away the really pretty moving pictures.

Or, say, we hate Japan and all things tentacular. Ok. Let's play Pathologic then, a game that's so complex it became the most precise and deep allegorical representation of Gnostic Cosmology ever entirely by accident, kind of as a side effect of all the political and cultural and philosophical levels it can be understood in. Or Azrael's Tear, who did mature themes in a much more mature, twisted, incidental, and subtle way in times before Christ or something.

There are games and other interactive things out there approaching mature themes in mature ways and really clawing themselves a place among artsy things, and by giving a sweet, wet, warm felattio to a mediocre work by a mediocre author with great production values you are making a diservice both to you and to the genre i want to think you love. Because, sincerely, if i had spent the last ten or twenty years of my life trying to make mature, inteligent, involving adventure games just for the two guys, three girls, and a cat who cared about things so niche and then some random hack with some really weak effort but a lot of money comes and gets lauded as the guy who turned games into an art form and videogame plots into seriouze stuff i would get really pissed, and i would probably send the genre, the fandom, and the industry to fuck itself sideways. Kind of what that guy who wrote Azrael's Tear did so long ago, come to think of it.

By turning a, i say, mediocre effort in a very lauded work of art and true works of something trying to approach art in niche, cult games no one cares about nor knows about we are really asking to be screwed. Dramatically short memories, limited ranges of experience, and an obsession with superlatives and getting carried away by the beautiful stranger we just met are the main vehicles to cultural degradation. To put it into another, more graphical, way it is the local equivalent of watching that Solaris aberration with that Clooney guy and say, WOW, this is really deep and complex and philosophical! This is how mature, intellectual movies should be done! While the original Solaris disembowels it with just little finger and without breaking a sweat, but no one ever watches it because its really old, ridiculously complex, and has a slow begining. And middle. And end, okay.

Sure, totally, Heavy Rain is important for videogames as an example a game based on plot, character interactions, and choices can be mainstream if they throw enough money at the hype machine, buy enough reviewers, and get themselves some pretty amazing graphics... But really, did the plot in some way force you to question your place in the world and the universe? Did you got your convictions and personal philosophies in a twist because of the spin it gave on its themes? It is like a comfortable, just deep enough to seem profound but not enough to destroy your life and your soul and your mind, movie. Yes, it is better than the horrid, acrid trash the industry tries to almost daily drown us with, but that's just like getting the first place on the special olympics. And it is more of a sorry day for videogames than a happy one the day such a pretentious and superficial little work unveils our eyes to how crappy most videogames are. Beggars can't be choosers, i guess.

If anything Heavy Rain shows us this industry is just like that industry in that truly deep shit is ignored because people do not like to be reminded they are retards or have their lives questioned, but semi profound shit carefully designed to give the feel of depth while not reaching the comfort horizon gets the oscars.

But hey, again, sorry if i did sound too harsh. I have a way with words, they say. An awful one, and a bit of an attitude. But i'm nice deep down, really. And warm and cuddly. Sometimes. :)

So long. Little fingers hurt.

The "what is art" argument is so tired and pointless it makes me want to blow my fucking brains out. But then I'm sure we'd be interperting the splatter on the wall behind me for weeks to come.

Art is as subjective as an opinion. The video game industry is young. You cannot compare it to mediums that are over a hundred, or, god help you, thousands of years old. What is important is to make note of important strides in the medium. Without The Great Train Robbery, you wouldn't have Birth of a Nation. Without Birth of a Nation, you wouldn't have Citizen Kane.

Film wasn't seen as an art form for dozens of years past its creation. Now, you can break down individual aspects of the damned thing. Lighting, editing, directing, acting, writing, sound design, costuming - these are not unlike what makes up a video game.

I recommend this game.

I'm not sure what you mean by super mean.

I don't read Japanese pulp fiction, so I wouldn't know. Having a passing interest I know about American pulp fiction and noir films in general. I've mentioned Double Indemnity - but we could add Maltese Falcon or The Big Sleep - to a list of popular entertainment that approaches "art," which I agree is an incredibly elusive, and objective term - which is why the thread.

I was curious other people's opinions, and appreciate yours.

Whether there are really good independent (and/or smaller niche efforts) games out there doesn't make Heavy Rain any less good. Just because uh, Fugazi rocked, doesn't mean Journey sucks.

On its own credentials, I believe Heavy Rain represents video gaming as art. I didn't say there weren't others out there.

I will play the games you mentioned, I'd love to find a thriving community of games pushing the envelope. I do love gaming - but yeah, I also have a lot of other interests, so, and perhaps regrettably so, it's the big games which are likely going to capture my attention.

That's true for most people with movies, and books, and films. Unfortunately. I believe the purchase and commercial/critical success of Heavy Rain will mean that those smaller game makers might be able to get their games produced since Heavy Rain has demonstrated there may very well be a market for games who break the mold.

As to the felattio. Ewww.

Hype didn't blow me away at 4 in the morning on the edge of my seat. Hasn't happened in a video game since...ok, I don't remember the last time. Even Riven wasn't able to produce that effect.


No - but that's not the point of all art. The Maltese Falcon doesn't either.
Or Plan 9 from Outer Space. But it did make me feel engaged with the characters and be able to experience the questions they were asking themselves - and it made me make a moral choice for them, which really involved me with their decisions. It was a visceral experience.

I think in that vein, for me, it qualified as art.

I think the field isn't as accepted as much as an artistic art form - movies can be considered entertainment or art, and sometimes both - and both are respected. With video games, no one has thought of it that way, it's thought of as a field for just entertainment. As those of us who grew up with video games age, and our tastes grow more sophisticated, games that engage and challenge those sophistications will hopefully grow as well.

To me, Heavy Rain is a significant step in that direction. And I think it's a fantastic game.

We do agree on something, the idea that the Oscars are a standard for excellence in movies is a complete and utter travesty.

I agree with everything you said - except I disagree the "what is art argument is pointless." Tired, a bit fatigued, sure. But not pointless. I'm fascinated by how art forms engage and impact other people, even if it didn't work for me.

I'd say I consider Riven and Heavy Rain art, but not everyone would, although - I think the may be the closest commercially viable games that I think one day might be considered cultural touchstones for games as art.

I think it's a fascinating debate to have on what games do you consider art, and why? Forums like this are just chock full o' people debating things much more subjective. Like whether HR is an adventure game, if Lost Crown was good or bad, third person vs. first person, etc etc

Everything else you said, you said better than I did in my last post.

Mircalla sounds like someone I used to know. Someone very dear. But that's beside the point.

I think Heavy Rain might perhaps be a bit of a late bloomer, and definitely isn't deserving of every accolade in the land. It's not even the most innovative AG (if one can dare to call it such, which I often do because I'm mean like that). However, it's high profile, it's story-before-gameplay, and it's fully animated with sound and 3-D rendering and such, which visual novels can't afford to do with any competence. It raises the bar and shifts the goalposts for what can be done with graphical adventures, and is a solid entry into high-end interactive storytelling, whatever its shortcomings may be.

Heavy Rain isn't the game I've been waiting my life to play. In fact, I'm not a PS3 owner, and almost certainly will never be, so the likelihood of me getting to play this game is remote. What I like is the IDEA of Heavy Rain and what it's trying to do for interactive storytelling as a budding medium. And if there's one thing that can convince people that something entertaining can be art, it's money, which will only come if we make more popular pieces of interactive storytelling. So Heavy Rain has its place in the grand scheme of things, whether it's as brilliant as The Last Express or as immersive as Myst III: Exile or as emotionally riveting as The Longest Journey (YMMV), it's still a dandy piece of video game, and it's not a FPS or a strategy game or RPG or MMO. It might not even be an Adventure Game, but it's close enough for my tastes, and gets closer to where I think AGs are inevitably going, anyway.

My two cents. Ta.

I was thinking it's story-AS-gameplay. That the story itself is the "puzzle", your emotional connection to the characters as the motivation to take on the challenges, and your gut reactions or instincts, influenced by your emotional connection to the characters, as the tools to try and solve the "puzzle".

I haven't completed the game yet (left off at the end of the chapter with Shelby visiting someone at that fleabag residential hotel). But so far my experience has been as I described above.

I'm inclined to say that it's not an Adventure Game according to the popular and conservative definition of what an Adventure Game is supposed to be.

I don't remember any big controversy about that game Shadow of Destiny/Memories, and it was featured and reviewed here at AG without question. But that game shares similarities with Heavy Rain in that your actions and decisions expand, contract, and otherwise manipulate the details of the overall story. And yet the game is still challenging as any other kind of bona fide adventure game could be.

We should make a thread for a list of weird artsy games no one heard about and stuff, that would be pretty amazing.

While you are at it check on some japanese visual novel things. They are like a choose your own adventure book on your computer but with graphics, music, voice acting, maybe some minigames, and really weird divergent plot lines. Just be careful when looking around since as with everything japanese looks can be deceiving and there's a lot of really perverse stuff, and a big amount of which is actually translated into english both oficially and by the fans themselves is hardcore pornography or worse, so a good deal of research before buying is a must, though in its defense i'll say there are even romantic and porno ones with really deep and philosophical plots, something i doubt anyone but japanese weirdos can manage to pull off so elegantly. If you can read japanese you will get your mind blown on the variety alone, but even in english you can get some really cool things.

Ever17 (Watch the opening on YouTube, Read about it on wikipedia but be mindful of the almost criminal spoilers on the plot and character sections) is a really good place to begin at, since it features so much mindscrew it's not even funny without any of the perversion and depravity other titles like to throw at you. It actually has so many twists and arcs going at the same time it turns the kind of revelations other games and tales keep for the big final twist into minor revelations to throw around a lull in the story during the normal arcs, and once you unlock the epic conclussion arc after doing the four main ones it goes beyond mindfuck and ventures straight into good old what the fuck were they smoking, pal. It is a real jewel, that one.

And it has some really amazing engrish ("The story is not an end yet. Because only you are in the infinite loop." being the most infamous example) thrown in for good measure because philosophical russian or japanese games without really weird translations would be against cosmic law. xD

That would launch us into the eternal struggle about what is really Art. My conception of it is more, say, metaphysical, and I wouldn't consider something i like, or something that produces an emotional reaction on me, as Art, but those things that take our attentions and contemplations to levels above, and beyond, mundane experience. But that's a problem of definition, and i can live with you using a diferent one for Art if you like.

Totally yes, that. My argument was that it's importance was getting blown out of proportion, not that it lacked any importance.

I'll take it as she being cute, lovely, funny, smart, adorable, cuddly, crazy in a really cool way, and totally very perky? :3

Your next words...

In a convuluted way that's what I was trying to say. If we break down Heavy Rain, just as a story - say it has no interactive elements and is simply a movie, it's not the greatest thing I've seen. I would likely consider parts derivative of certain 90s thrillers (Silence, Fatal, 7, etc...)

But what's unique is that it pulls you in and makes you part of the story - the gameplay functions as part of the story - the narrative suddenly becomes much more real because of the consequences the person playing makes, whether that's missing a key or deciding to ... well, you get the picture.

There is one big moral choice in the game which left me staring wide-eyed at the screen, and panicky, in that I knew either option would have huge repercussions, for the story, for how it would change the character - and for the way I experienced it.

Riven, I would say, has a story that as a direct narrative would completely work, if of course, told in a different way. As a game, in the way the Millers presented it, flawless beauty. I still get shivers thinking about it.

Also, Intrepid, can't believe you've been able to take a break. It was two gaming sessions for me, I couldn't handle not knowing.

http://noaddedsugar.ie/wp-content/up...xauto-1403.jpg
Flower

I need to re-familiarize myself with the button layout on the PS3 controller. When I used to have the original Playstation and played it intensively, it was intuitive. But I hadn't had done so in years and just acquired my PS3 Slim. Poor Shelby suffered because of my rusty skills.

Spoiler:

He got beat up in the hotel.

Currently I'm playing Flower (gameplay clip), though that's not helping because that game's controls is minimalistic - SIXAXIS and a single button are all that's needed. Have you played Flower? Since we're talking about games as art, you should have no problem at all qualifying that game.

I'll download a few more demos and hopefully will get back on track.

She was very nearly perfect. I was just a poor match for her. C'est la vie.

I think people's focus on the storytelling in Heavy Rain -- while completely logical -- is also missing the point a little. The storytelling is not what makes Heavy Rain an excellent game. It's the way we interact with the story (or "play" the game) that gives it such emotional impact.

The way the game managed to squeeze genuine emotion out of me through situation and choice; emotions that I rarely (if ever) feel while playing a game...that is why Heavy Rain has artistic merit. It takes skill, innovation and balls to pull that off in a medium so focused on instant gratification.

I haven't played Riven. In fact, Revelation was the first Myst game I'd ever bought and played. The interface and style of the game was so alien to me that I never made it out of the first environment! It was kind of overwhelming.

I think when I mention storytelling in video games, I usually remember to refer to it as interactive storytelling, which to me is a whole new medium with its own considerations and dramatic devises. That includes how you 'play' the story, which is a feature television, movies and even books can't really give you. Even Choose Your Own Adventures are static. Video games can't give you as much free agency as the concept of interactive storytelling implies, simply because of resource management, but MMOs have cracked that to an extent. This is probably why I'm waiting for a proper MMOAG. But meanwhile, games like Dreamfall and Heavy Rain bring us closer to a form of AG based on story-as-game, which is my holy grail. Might not work for all AGers (particularly the puzzle-centric sort), but I still honestly think that's where things are going.

Although I titled this games as art: Heavy Rain & Riven, I had thought it would be interesting what other games people could throw in the mix as to games they thought were art.

I haven't played as many adventure games as most people on this forum - so I imagine there are a quite a few that I'd love to hear about.

From my perspective, a game as art doesn't necessarily mean pretty graphics (although it certainly helps) but a combination of gameplay, aesthetics, narrative that tends to transcend the genre.

As much as I love Myst III, I don't think it makes the grade due to the fact it feels like a serialized epilogue comic book to Myst. It's massively enjoyable but it doesn't have the scope, depth, or gravity of Riven. I haven't played Myst IV (or V) yet.

What games could people throw in the mix they think qualify as art?

Almost everything can be called art IMO - the term art can only vaguely be defined. But to me "Today I Die" is art. But I guess it could also be called poetry - when it comes to games the lines between art forms often more or less blurs.

It's a Flash game and only takes about 5 minutes to complete, so I'll recommend everybody to give it a spin.
http://www.ludomancy.com/games/today.php

Also, ICO for the PS2 (haven't completed it though):
http://www.icothegame.com/

EDIT: Adjusted the third sentence.