CHALLENGE to smart puzzlers~New Beginning
 

Bent disabling the bomb at the end of chapter 5.
Seems to me to be one of the worst designed puzzles I've come across in 30 years of Quest/Adventuring.
Or is it just me? :\

It is very easy to 'overcome' this puzzle (and for some folk to even pretend that they solved it since there is a simple built in 'SKIP' mechanism – but for those who enjoy puzzling in Adventures this is obviously no 'solution'.
I have so far spent about 3/34 hour on it and have not yet discovered the logic or proper mechanism for solving it – other of course than pure butal hit & miss which is most unsatisfactory and has too many variable parameters for me to crack it - as yet!

The only walkthrough I have found on the Net sidesteps this issue. It gives a few general but obvious instructions which are superfluous and ambiguous anyway. It also gives a picture of the situation at the end of the puzzle but absolutely no word about how to get there.

SO --- Can anybody provide one of two hings ~ either :-
(A) A proper full description of how to proceed (not just the generalities of the walkthrough – which are obvious.
(B) OR 1 or preferably 2 or 3 screenies of the solution as it develops.
***** TIA *****

Having been finished with this game a while ago (and having become less and less impressed with it as I went along, IIRC), I cannot remember what you are speaking of specifically.

But, so, and thus, I'm not worried about spoiling myself or looking at a walkthrough now... so if you'll give me a link to the walkthrough you are referring to I can try and get reacquainted enough to see what I can say about the bomb disarming you are talking about.

I, for one, skipped that puzzle for my own sanity. The skippable puzzles are best thing after hotspot highliter that ever happened to adventure games.

Thanks for your speedy replies.
The only full W/T I could find on the net is at http://www.gameboomers.com/wtcheats/...wBeginning.htm
The puzzle is described & a screencap included immediately before the end of chapter 5.
I have now spent well over an hour and only succeeded in coming across anomalies and logical contradictions butt no solution !!!! :( :( :(

Sorry to reiterate and probably bore, but this puzzle has got me infuriated. :( :(
The W/T says as follows – and this would seem reasonable, sensible and logical :-
But it's driving me up the wall !!!!
There are rows &/or columns which are "0" and yet have 1 or more red clips (or whatever they are). Similarly, there are rows &/or columns which are, just for example designated as say 3 but only have 2 or even only 1 red clip. There often seems to be no correlation between the number of red clips (i.e. 1's) or yellows with the appropriate numbers – as would be imagined.
There are also several other anomalies & contradictions regarding the placing of red & yellow clips.

I am wondering if I am crazy or the game developers ???

Okay I remember it now from the screencap in that walkthrough.

Let me see if I can remember how the rationale went (hopefully without having to re-install; because even that would require that I saved my saves which I'm pretty sure I did not {damned sure, actually})... I think it was logical; at least I don't recall it not being... I did create thread about the game somewheres around here and probably would have been like you (ranting about a bad puzzle!!!! ;) ) so I'll take a llok there too...

I'll be back.

Alright...

Tell me if I'm wrong but this describes the situation to me:

The number (simple accumulative) of each row or column has to match what is etched above (columns) or to the right (rows).

So a column that has a 3 etched above it would need 3 points (of the 5 in each row or column -- you see, the grid being 5x5).

There are "natural" (without a clip) red (worth 1) or yellow (worth 0) colored points.

Otherwise you can use the clips to "change" the colors to help the points add up correctly.

...

Is this not how it works?

As I say it's been a bit since I finished the game.

Let me explain further just in case. I'll use/refer-to the screencap in the walkthrough:

As you see the only "problems" are the 2nd column and the 1st row...

The 2nd column needs to be (needs to add up to) 2. But only 1 of the 5 points is red as the screecap stands.

The 1st row needs to be (needs to add up to) 3. But only 2 of the 5 points is red as the screecap stands.

By placing that red clip where indicated, you change the color of the 1st point in column 2 and the 2nd point in row 1 (they are the same point, right?)...

The other point affected by the clip is unchanged because it is already red as it needs to be. So it doesn't "mess" anything else up.

I believe that's even clearer? Hopefully?

Hi Matt,
First & foremost – sincere thanks for your help and your time & effort involved. I seem to remember your help previously but can't find that older thread to verify !In think we are a bit at cross purposes. I agree that once we arrive virtually at the very end of the puzzle at the screencap in the W/T it is a walk over. But what STILL holds me up and infuriates me is how to go from the start of the puzzle to that point.

Before I forget – do you happen to know if it is a 'fixed' puzzle or a randomly generated one for each different player ? I guess the former, but I'm not sure.

I have TWO serious criticisms of the logical & technical sides of the puzzle.

The first one I can describe fairly quickly – but in rather generalized form – as follows:-
***** The whole thing seems to be a complete total randomly-illogical mess. Clicking yellow &/or red items (or even just clicking alone) on horizontal and vertical links produces totally unpredictable illogical results and reduces the puzzle. to a VERY lengthy trial & error process – even if that is possible considering the multitude of permutations & combinations!!! This alone is a pain in the butt!"

The other IMO more horrendous criticism is a bit more difficult to describe concisely, so I shall leave it for a second stand alone post IMMEDIATELY after this one – as soon as I can compose it!

I have 2 or 3 screencaps of the process of transforming from the original situation to the final required situation – but I have not posted graphics here previously and don't know the procedure, so I'll try to be 100% clear with words.
I reached 5 and at one try 6 correct #s out of the 10 necessary – but have not managed to proceed further.

Assuming that the game's numbers are NOT randomly generated I agree that the problem is as follows – to transform the original 10 #s in black to the ones in red as follows :-
Columns from left to right 40 22 33 42 30
Rows from top to bottom 33 43 31 40 20
As you change reds to yellows and vice versa, the cumulative intermediate #'s both yellow and red generally BUT NOT ALWAYS automatically change in accordance to the new cumulative sum of res (i.e. "1"s).
Or so I thought! Button !!! I have screenshots showing the sort of things I get all the time as follows (whether columns or rows is immaterial :-
*** 3 reds + 2 yellows ----->> 3 ……OK
Change 1 red to yellow still ---->> 3 ……???
**** 2 reds + 3 yellows ----->> 4 ……???
***** One complete row of yellows---- >> 1 ……???

To me, this sort of thing seems crazy and VERY BAD !!
Does it to you? Maybe it's sup[posed to be like that and I'm obtuse ???
P.S. The W/T gives no mention whatsoever of any of these things or more importantly how to proceed from the beginning orientation to (almost) the very end !!

Hi Matt (or anyone else)
I wonder if you would agree to check my above vents by trying the puzzle yourself ?
If so, it will take AGES to reach it – unless you happen to have retained a close savegame.
In that case I can send you a savegame IMMEDIATELY before the puzzle.
However I'll need your email address. If you don’t like posting it here I can send you my email address!
Cheers ---- Len

Just a quick look in... didn't expect 3 posts worth to read (I'm kind of tired at the mo', but will come back and see if anyone responded and try and respond more myself), but as for now, as for the quote I quoted by quoting you in quote-brackets above, and I quote...

Is your puzzle different numbers-wise? or "natural" color-wise? from the 10 etched numbers in the walkthrough screenshot and/or the 25 "natural" colors in the grid of same screenshot?

I don't imagine the puzzle could be randomly generated; it would definitely need some pretty smart code to make sure it was a solvable pattern and I doubt they would spend the time when, as you "say" or demonstrate, it would hardly even be noticed.

As I say, I'm tired right now... and, so, I am not giving your posts a true read-through, and so and thus and so I don't quite get your frustration, but will come back later and give your explanation a more thorough read-through. :)

Wait... let me ask one more thing...

You understand that each clip affects 2 points?

...

This can have an effect on up to 4 totals:

Maximally:

If you place a red clip on 2 adjacent yellow "naturals" it will add 2 to whatever row or column the clip is in line with and add one to each of the 2 columns or rows that the clip is crossing.

Minimally:

If you place a red clip on 2 adjacent red "naturals" it will do nothing.

?

Any better?

If you don't object, I'd like to email you (personally) some screencaps --- I don't expect that you're on skype as I am are you?
If you don't like splashing your email address around on an open forum, please email me at [email protected] but make sure your "subnject" is Hi-LG or it will get trashed together with the tons of spam I get daily TIA

I am afraid that we are still talking at cross purposes to some degree :(
Since I don't know how to post a .jpg on AG forums I'll do the next best thing and describe in words what worries upsets me.
After about a half dozen or so of inserting yellow and red clips I get the following – do you think this is "feasible" , and if not do you think that I'm justified in ventin g ???
]******** (Cumulative) # …..... # of reds
Row 1 from top ... 1 ………...........…. 3
Row 2 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 3
Row 3 from top... 1 ………............…. 0
Row 4 from top... 1 ………............…. 0
Row 5 from top... 1 ………............…. 0

Column 1 " left... 0 ………............…. 0
Column 2 " left... 2 ………............…. 2
Column 3 " left... 1 ………............…. 2
Column 4 " left... 3 ………............…. 2
Column 5 " left... 1 ………............…. 1

i.e. 5 rows or columns make sense to me – the other 5 do not !!!

Oh, you are definitely justified in venting if the game is not calculating the numbers. That's unquestionable; a bug of bugs; enough to piss me off too, even if I didn't experience it: just on your behalf!

To post your screenshots all you need to do is (possibly the same as you did for your avatar):

• Go to one of many suitable picture hosting sites (imageshack; photobucket; etc.)
• Upload your images there.
• Use the "insert image" icon up there on the toolbar available to you (along with bold, italics...) to place the image in the message here. It'll ask you for the URL of the image and you should get that (or, rather, "those", as you will be uploading more than one image I believe) from the hosting site once you have uploaded them there.

If by "best" you mean "worst", then yes.

Although I can see why developers have made the "skippable puzzles", I never like using them...it feels too much like cheating. I don't have any quams about looking up hints/walkthroughs, but for some reason, I just can't skip a puzzle and not know how to solve it. :crazy:

More on topic: I'm sorry you're having trouble, Len, hopefully you can figure it out. :)

I being quite opinionated...

Find that walk-throughs, high-lighters, and skippable puzzles... are shortcuts.

Shortcuts to the demise of good adventure games. If you create a game that has obtuse puzzles that need to be skippable; or pixels-hunts that require high-lighting; or "players" being walked-through...

You have created a poor product. Back to the drawing board, or off to HOGland, please.

Yes ! I also absolutely HATE the idea of skipping a puzzle. After all, puzzles are one of the main reasons that most of us love Adventure games over other genres!
During VERY many years of playing I honestly don't remember if & when I ever skipped a puzzle before no matter how tough (but 'fair' !)

Here's another one {Below} ! :( :( :(
I spent about 3 hours and over a dozen tries but in the end I had no alternative but to skip in order to continue the game.
That's not 'right' is it ??

I wonder if ANYBODY managed to solve the puzzle PROPERLY – nobody has yet said so.
If however somebody HAS done so, please tell me the steps you used – or at least your strategy in solving it. TIA.

******** (Cumulative) # …..... # of reds
Row 1 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 5
Row 2 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 3
Row 3 from top... 2 ………............…. 4
Row 4 from top... 2 ………............…. 0
Row 5 from top... 0 ………............…. 0

Column 1 " left... 2 ………............…. 3
Column 2 " left... 2 ………............…. 3
Column 3 " left... 3 ………............…. 3
Column 4 " left... 2 ………............…. 2
Column 5 " left... 1 ………............…. 1

I fully admit that I didn't see the full logic of this puzzle immediately, but from memory the strategy goes something like this:

The rows and columns where the final total has to be zero cannot contain any reds, either originally on the base or added clips. Firstly then cover any reds on the base with yellows giving you the correct zero scores.

This reduces the options as to where red clips can be placed to give the required totals. Notice that a red clip has two ends and wherever you place one it will affect the total of more than one row or column. If a red clip is in line with the total, it counts as two (both ends). If the red clip is perpendicular to the required total only one end is in line so it only counts as one. Original red bases also count (this is what I didn't appreciate at first).

You are perfectly right chsmt of course and that was the strategy I used for my first couple of attempts – afterwards I used other strategies with the same awful results :(
It is the intermediate steps (which you also refer to) which seem to me to be absolutely crazy as you can see in the 2 examples I have given.

Along the way after any number of "moves" how on earth can you arrive a row which has NO REDS (but 5 yellows) whose number at the extreme left side is not 0 but1 1 ?????
OR --- For example, how on can you arrive at a column which has r REDS (but 2 yellows) whose number at the extreme top is not 3 but1only 2 ?????

How is anybody supposed to solve a puzzle like that? Or has EVERYBODY, like me, given up in despair after a while and skipped in order to continue the game – which is bad & ridiculous IMO !
If anybody HAS really completed the puzzle I would love to receive a "blow byblow" list of the steps from start to finish :)

Why don't you post the screenshots you have?

Doesn't your grid look exactly the same as the one in the walkthrough? You never did answer that. It doesn't change mid-puzzle does it?

I solved the puzzle without a walkthrough; I'm sure of it. Or else I would have quit and deleted the game from my HDD. I don't recall doing that.

OK --- I've occasiomally posted graphics on other forums but never as yet on AG - it's always a bit of a hassle - but I'll try later om today !

No - the overall grid doesn't change - only the red & yellow squares and WHAT SHOULD BE the corresponding cumulative numbers, some of which are in agreement with the coloured squares but haldf the time are NOT !!!

http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6537/pic7c.jpg

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http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/593/pic7dr.jpg

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Yep.

That's certainly fucked up according to my recent guess at how it works...

I'll have a look and find my old thread and see if I did actually come across this ugliness, or what...

Be back soon.

Okay found my old thread.

I did find that I too had an infuriating "episode" (the gameplay aberration/randomness/arbitrary-crap with regards to getting into a certain room)... I apparently did not experience the bomb grid bug you are dealing with...

I started that thread, so, I guess I did begin with some enthusiasm. And, later, with the running across the above, and a few other things along the way I lessened my enthusiasm.

And now, having seen your problem (I'll give it a maybe a little more thinking about as to the methodology -- maybe I've got it wrong -- but it seems to be a glaring a bug), I am ready to wholeheartedly agree that this is another big ugly bug. Which puts this game, sadly, in the end, in the junk pile.

And to think I went and created a thread believing I had come across a AG that wasn't somehow yet another miserable disappointment ;)

Just to help evaluate the situation, Len, can you post a screenshot of the grid without any clips?

Thanks.

I'm still thinking maybe I just "remembered" (I don't remember it really, just re-interpreted it from the walkthrough you showed me) the methodology incorrectly...

I am intrigued! At least that's something ;)

...

Yeah. But once it's done, it's done. Just bookmark it and attach your password to the bookmark... for the future; it's not vital, and it isn't necessary to keep high security anyway, just handy. And now you've done it... eh? At least that's another something ;)

Hi Matt,
I did not intend to cause you hassle or embarrasment.
You are (almost) the only one who has reacted to this affair - and for that many thanks.
I agree totally - there is a great deal of VERY good stuff in ANB including amongst other thungs a very interesting & original story and superb voive acting.
But some VERY BAD technical troubles including at least one dead end for certain and quitel likely more !!
I do not want to run the game down however - that was not my purpose, but just wanting to no whether I was alone with this apparently crazy behaviour.
If you have time, there are some things I would like to discuss with you but which I'd rather not post on the forum so if you agree I'd like to email you - but see an earlier post of mine for email details !!

I don't feel hassled (or embarrassed?). I feel intrigued!

I'm honestly curious about this glaring bug and why I didn't experience it and how no one else in the thread about the game experienced it. It is a kind of meta-game/mystery-to-be-solved now... So actually I will hold it against the game as far as objectivity goes, but kind of subjectively am getting more out of the game ;)

...

As for discussing other things I'd be happy to; just would have to (and I see you understand this) setup an email... OR maybe you have an irc cleint? and we could just meet on a server and actually be able to chat. Skype I left behind ages ago about the time eBay acquired it, or just before...

Anyway, IRC is stalwart and back-channel enough AND it affords us a chance to have a proper back-and-forth conversation rather than piecemeal as EMail would do...

I'm okay with any of it (I actually don't have a problem discussing any and everything out in the open either -- I prefer it but know others do not).

So, let's meet half way and IRC if possible.

I think I had IRC but stopped using it a long time ago and can;t remember its use at allt.
I use Skype a lot - it is excellent for international communication. Speech is MUCH easier & quicker for me rather than text communication (I'm not a touch or speedy typist) and it comes through both ends much clearer than phone calls and of course is free. I am in almost daily Skype contact with and helping a game developer iabroad, n Sweden. With Skype you can also ccorrespond textually if necessary and transmit file even those of very many Ggiga's with an automatic save mechanism if interruprted.
I don't use a camera - only a fairly cheap head set for speech.
(I guess you are situated in UK or USA ???)

The way it is on my game – it seems IMPOSSIBLE to solve !!!What I would like to confirm that it IS POSSIBLE to complete and not just a local corruption on my specific.gaccccopy of the game !
What I would REALLY like of course is for some kind soul to send me his/her steps in properly solving it thus proving that it is NOT a general (& VERY serious bug i.e. The following theoretical sort of example – although I know very well that this w)ould require some hassle on the part of some kind soul here !

Call columns A thro' E and rows 1 thro' 5
Yellow clip on B3 ----- red clip on D2 ----- yellow on E5 ----- yellow on A4 ----- red on A1 --------- etc to the end.

I am both shocked and disgusted.

Although it is against my principles I have no alternative but to reluctantly say that this game is indeed terrible.
Despite some wonderful stuff in it, ANB is a write-off.
I can't understand how Developers can invest so much time, effort, and MONEY into a game and not get decent beta testers to iron out the MANY bugs – the game is full of them - I can list them if necessary. There are literally dozens of minor bugs; at least 2 not so minor bugs; at least 4 major technical bugs,
But to cap it all for the second time I have run into a VERY SERIOOUS dead end at the end of chapter 6 (out of 8 chapters) which forces me to replay from a save a LONG WAY BACK

I am both frustrated & disappointed!.

I must apologize to anybody who has a direct or even indirect interest in [I]A New Beginning[?I].
I never criticize unfairly and if I do by mistake I always apologize – which is what I'm doing now
On further examination BOTH of the two serious dead-ends that I complained about ARE NOT SO AT ALL !!!.
Mea Culpa !
There are still quite a number of technical bugs and I still have a suspicion (but no more) that there MAY BE a dead-end lurking around.
And of course unless and until somebody comes up with a proper full solution to the "defuse bomb" puzzle, that is still a serious bug!

Len, the thing about IRC is that you can get a client that is portable and weighs-in at less than 100KB. And it's not tied to any commercial interests.

The thing about Skype is its a bloated, invasive, corporatized mess of software. I really can't go there.

Let's just discuss whatever it is you'd like to talk about here; or in the off-topic subforum; or, if you really think it needs to be private, on IRC or through PMs?

As for me I'm not embarrassed or worried about discussing anything out in the open, honestly.

...

In the meantime may I ask again if you can please post a screenshot of the bomb grid with all the clips removed? I still want to make sure I didn't re-evaluate the solving methodology incorrectly.

Thanks.

No - absolutely nothing "secret" or to hide !

Agreed - will just continue here - But there isn't anything really to add - it just seems to have got unnecessarily complicated - will conclude (UNLESS ANY FURTHER QUERIES) with repeating my basic question in my following post.
Cheers --- Len
***** Here is the start of the puzzle - before making ANY changes - 100% OK of course !

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1458/pic07q.jpg

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There seems to be a contradiction ( "A" versus "B") in this puzzle which I am anxious to solve. Unfortunately to resolve it properly & fully, somebody would have to spend quite a bit of time & hassle – and I don't know if anybody is prepared to do so, and I wouldn't blame them. :)

"A" ***** The only walkthrough I could find gives no step by step solution - which would of course solve the whole matter – it only mentions… yellow clips turn reds to yellows, and red clips turn yellows to reds. All of which is more or less self evident.
BIT - --- the same walkthru' shows a screecap of (the step before) the last which is perfectly in order.
Question !! Who arrived at this correct solution and how did s(he) do it ???

"B" ***** I have tried it a number of times and each time, after just a few steps I run into what seem to be technical absurdities – as illustrated in my previous posts (and so I have, like many others apparently, had no option but to resort against my will ti skipping the puzzle in order to continue the game!!). This is not due to my frequent encounters with puzzles with no 'instructions', and which I simply don't know what I'm expected to do. Nor is it dure to an extraordinary difficult or long manipulation of scores & scores of streps (as in some mammoth sliders or the like). It is simply due to the fact that my attempts immediately lead me to intermediate steps which seem to be completely buggy – as I've illustrated in previous posts. From my several attempts it seems that the puzzle's mechanism is totally corrupt & doesn't 'work' properly at all?!?!

BOTTOM LINE
The only way to resolve this contradiction with absolute certainty
is for some kind person to reinstall the game, insert a savegame (as close as possible before the puzzle) and try to solve it – but I repeat, I know that this would be a time consuming hassle (I could of course supply a savegame IMMEDIATELY before the puzzle to save time & effort).

***** If the results are as I have encountered then there is a VERY serious bug inside the game itself – and not just some possible local bug in my computer setup.
***** If on the other hand the game 'behaves' properly, then please send me the list of steps so that I can try them out myself – as written in a previous post of mine – something like the following :-
Call the columns A thro' E, and rows 1 thro' 5 :-
Put yellow clip on B3 ----- red clip on D2 ----- yellow on E5 ----- yellow on A4 ----- red on A1 --------- etc. etc. to the final correct solution.

I DON"T THINK THAT I CAN ADD ANYTHING FURTHER OF USE.

How big is the save game? I'm seriously considering a re-install. As I said, I am intrigued! :)