[Gonzosports]

Originally Posted by Mircalla

First, don't worry. It wasn't a personal attack at the end, it just seems most people here take my overly melodramatic, ridiculously superlative, kind of rambling style of writing as a personal insult while i just write like that because i found very entertaining to do so. And in any case if you pay attention it was more of a jab to me ("for once") than to you, but sorry if it bothered you. I'll try to write as a normal person since you are all super mean to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by super mean.

Originally Posted by Mircalla

Now, i actually think you are right on the medium of games being able to be, like, High Art. Or Art. Or whatever. The problem, though, is that both Art and Maturity are not defined by Themes but by the way those Themes are aproached. And sure, Heavy Rain did some things right but i kind of think it is getting out of control by now. As i said it didn't do anything new and Japanese visual novels have been doing this very same thing for over nine thousand years or so, and have already refined the entire concept to a point Heavy Rain looks like a really amateur effort we if take away the really pretty moving pictures.

I don't read Japanese pulp fiction, so I wouldn't know. Having a passing interest I know about American pulp fiction and noir films in general. I've mentioned Double Indemnity - but we could add Maltese Falcon or The Big Sleep - to a list of popular entertainment that approaches "art," which I agree is an incredibly elusive, and objective term - which is why the thread.

I was curious other people's opinions, and appreciate yours.

Originally Posted by Mircalla

Or, say, we hate Japan and all things tentacular. Ok. Let's play Pathologic then, a game that's so complex it became the most precise and deep allegorical representation of Gnostic Cosmology ever entirely by accident....giving a sweet, wet, warm felattio to a mediocre work by a mediocre author with great production values you are making a diservice both to you and to the genre i want to think you love.

Whether there are really good independent (and/or smaller niche efforts) games out there doesn't make Heavy Rain any less good. Just because uh, Fugazi rocked, doesn't mean Journey sucks.

On its own credentials, I believe Heavy Rain represents video gaming as art. I didn't say there weren't others out there.

I will play the games you mentioned, I'd love to find a thriving community of games pushing the envelope. I do love gaming - but yeah, I also have a lot of other interests, so, and perhaps regrettably so, it's the big games which are likely going to capture my attention.

That's true for most people with movies, and books, and films. Unfortunately. I believe the purchase and commercial/critical success of Heavy Rain will mean that those smaller game makers might be able to get their games produced since Heavy Rain has demonstrated there may very well be a market for games who break the mold.

As to the felattio. Ewww.

Originally Posted by Mircalla

By turning a, i say, mediocre effort in a very lauded work of art and true works of something trying to approach art in niche, cult games no one cares about nor knows about we are really asking to be screwed.

Sure, totally, Heavy Rain is important for videogames as an example a game based on plot, character interactions, and choices can be mainstream if they throw enough money at the hype machine, buy enough reviewers, and get themselves some pretty amazing graphics...

Hype didn't blow me away at 4 in the morning on the edge of my seat. Hasn't happened in a video game since...ok, I don't remember the last time. Even Riven wasn't able to produce that effect.

Originally Posted by Mircalla

But really, did the plot in some way force you to question your place in the world and the universe? Did you got your convictions and personal philosophies in a twist because of the spin it gave on its themes?

No - but that's not the point of all art. The Maltese Falcon doesn't either.
Or Plan 9 from Outer Space. But it did make me feel engaged with the characters and be able to experience the questions they were asking themselves - and it made me make a moral choice for them, which really involved me with their decisions. It was a visceral experience.

I think in that vein, for me, it qualified as art.

Originally Posted by Mircalla

If anything Heavy Rain shows us this industry is just like that industry in that truly deep shit is ignored because people do not like to be reminded they are retards or have their lives questioned, but semi profound shit carefully designed to give the feel of depth while not reaching the comfort horizon gets the oscars.

But hey, again, sorry if i did sound too harsh. I have a way with words, they say. An awful one, and a bit of an attitude. But i'm nice deep down, really. And warm and cuddly. Sometimes.

I think the field isn't as accepted as much as an artistic art form - movies can be considered entertainment or art, and sometimes both - and both are respected. With video games, no one has thought of it that way, it's thought of as a field for just entertainment. As those of us who grew up with video games age, and our tastes grow more sophisticated, games that engage and challenge those sophistications will hopefully grow as well.

To me, Heavy Rain is a significant step in that direction. And I think it's a fantastic game.

We do agree on something, the idea that the Oscars are a standard for excellence in movies is a complete and utter travesty.