[Marduk]

Without puzzles all we have is a cartoon or CGI movie or, with the oldest games, heavily illustrated novels.

I do agree that a puzzle should be organic to the story and/or environment, though, or it will seem like the developer has been forcing them in when they couldn't find better places to add them. But all to often I look back on a puzzle that seems stupid and I can imagine how the writer in question decided it probably makes sense from the character's [distorted?] point of view or within the world of the game.

Example, many people had a problem with the frog in Discworld

Spoiler:

which was to be used by going back in time and using it on Rincewind's mouth. It might have seemed like a silly thing to do but it explained why it came out of his mouth near the start of the game

. (I suddenly feel compelled to play Discworld......)

If these organic puzzles can be added AND really help the drive the narrative while keeping you involved with the story then the game deserves an award.

No, it's the immersion, the ability to think non-linearly, and the ability to offer players choices they don't have in a novel or movie.

Once upon a time only adventures offered immersion into the story. Now there are quite a lot from competing genres; GTA, assassin's creed, silent hill (haven't played that last one). I'd have to say that yes; it is the type of puzzles that make an adventure game unique.

Sorry.I have to ask what is an interactive movie? Can you name one? Because if there was a format where you could actually determine actions,events, or motivations of main characters that affect the story, I would think that would be awesome.

I think Lou meant interactive novels. I've never played one but I understand they're popular in Japan. I understand that "Flower, Sun, and Rain" and "Lux-Pain" (both for the N: DS) both fall into thie category (I haven't played either, but I intend to when I can afford to).

I really don't understand quite what you're looking for. Something like 'Dragon's Lair' perhaps? (Another game I never played so I can't really judge it but I haven't liked what I heard)

Have you seen this, btw? From what I understand there's little or no combat except from pressing the right button at the right time. Refusing to press that button, or not pressing it immediately, changes the course of the game which has multiple endings. The preview does a better job of explaining it. (I deeply covet this game).

I've already mentioned a couple that don't work for me:

TLJ
Broken Sword 1

I don't actually know what 'TLJ' is But BS1? I'm a little surprised. I had some of the problems you've mentioned with BS2 (I'm not even going to start another discussion about BS3 and the evil of BS4) but BS1's puzzles seemed quite sensible, to me.

Then why play an adventure game, or why play a computer game at all? Sudoku, crossword puzzles, 3D maps are much cheaper. Or if it has to be on computer, why not play Shanghai? Or a pixel hunting game?

Are you seriously suggesting that the adventure game genre is not based around a story as its focal point?

That isn't what Lou said at all. The puzzles in AGs are like the puzzles you'll find nowhere else except for written or verbal lateral thinking exercises which suck because they withhold far too much information that we shouldn't be expected to workout for ourselves.

I've already said what you'd be left without puzzles.

wow and yet you manage to sound completely condescending.

She is right, you are condescending. You seem to shout down everybody who disagrees rather than try to clarify your arguments to make people understand.

Originally Posted by WeeJee

I believe the Telltale games do things right (Sam & Max, Strong Bad, Wallace & Gromit). They focus intensely on story, while still managing to make the games challenging (they don't need to be difficult, just not "click-to-continue" style), very questy, and I have yet to see a ridiculous cookie-baking session using a needlessly cryptic recipe.

I was worried that nobody would mention TTG. One of their strategies has been to focus on puzzles that make sense and don't break the narrative flow. They also have 'hint' systems to prompt you along if you get stuck every 5 or 10 minutes or so (the rate at which they're interspersed can be altered or entirely switched off).

I'd also like to recommend Discworld Noir; to date my favourite AG for puzzles and their relation to the story. While it still depends on an inventory and using items in a tradition Adventure Game way much of this has been replaced by the protagonist's Notepad, where clues can be used with other clues, items or people in the same kind of way something from your inventory would be.

Spoiler:

(Further on in the game he becomes a werewolf and you have to collect 'scents' to follow which are stored in a kind of inventory These can be used on other scents or even items, people or clues for the protagonist to make connections between them which advance the story, so I actually liked the system).

I've mentioned this game before and would desperate to see more games use this kind of system as it is a brilliant way to use puzzles to draw the player into the story and keep propelling the story as you play. (I'm told "The Shivah" implements a system somewhat like this and is next on my 'games to play' list).