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No new postsAsylum delays and unfulfilled developer promises
You’re Fien/Betje, right? You’re extremely intelligent and darn well-versed in the adventure genre, but I’m sorry that you can be so spiteful. I’ve tried reasoning with you many times in the past (ever since the Just Adventure forums) to no avail.
We had one or two heated game-related discussions at the JA forums in 2002/03. But no discussions or fights at AG or elsewhere in the 13 years since, let alone you reasoning with me to no avail, except once in a thread about Bracken Tor. This is the very first time I have commented on your updates and progress with Asylum.
In case there are any misunderstandings: I never thought the project was dead. Of course you’re still working on Asylum. For one thing, you couldn’t afford not to. So it will be released one day. But. But. But. What comes shining through the tone of the updates, the second Kickstarter (for me that qualifies as taking advantage of backers; you can’t keep a company afloat on KS money), the switch to another engine after 5 years, and even through small details (Scratches no longer available) is that you are being unrealistic, you are not good at planning ahead, and not on top of things. In your own worst-case scenario, after the switch to Unity, Asylum should have been released months ago.
I’m posting the link to the 2012 thread http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/viewthread/926/ because it has a lot in common with this one. Me accusing Matt Clark of making and breaking specific promises, you defending him and all indie developers with general arguments. And where is his game now, three years later? I’ve had it with the sweeping statements about controlling publishers and hardworking developers and backers-who-don’t-understand etcetera that have been posted countless times in countless threads by developers and backers alike.
Sure, it’s all at least partly true. But they’re used as excuses. I don’t know much about game development and I’m glad I learned interesting stuff from the many Kickstarter projects and updates. Kickstarter also taught me that developers continue to perpetuate the myth that game development is a very special kind of industry, where predicting, planning and organising are virtually impossible. I never really bought that, but it still came as a shock when Tim Schafer and his company of 60+ people (including planners and bookkeepers) designed a 15 million game when they had only 3 million dollars.
what backers don’t seem to realize (and I stress this isn’t their fault) is that Kickstarter budgets are only meant to complete a project.
Nonsense. You can’t seriously believe backers are that uninformed!
[…]but you have to put things into perspective before accusing developers of incompetence, laziness, or even worse, foul-play.
You are the only poster here who used those and other strong negative words like evil, toxic, ill will, spiteful. Same thing in the Bracken Tor thread: lying, trash talk, hatred, incompetent, lazy. Those were your words, not mine or anybody else’s.
The industry changes fast and sometimes we must take drastic decisions to survive — the decision to turn Dreamfall Chapters into an episodic game is one of them. I can guarantee you that neither Double Fine or Red Thread or any of the companies you mentioned are diving in money. You can’t possibly think they mean ill with such decisions.
You’re not listening. Ragnar broke his promise to backers that Dreamfall Chapters would not be episodical. We’re not talking just emotional disappointment here, but legitimate complaints. He shouldn’t have made that promise if he wasn’t sure he could keep it. He was not on top of things and that does not inspire trust. It really is that simple.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
With Kickstarter, everything is public from the start, and the only ‘weapon’ the backers have is ‘complaining online’.
The question is why anyone thinks such weapons are needed or that they’re in a fight with the developer. Seems that simply asking questions respectfully is usually a last resort on the internet.
Unfortunately, what you call “a sad thing to observe” has imo been inevitable from the get-go…
That much is certainly true. It was entirely predictable.
Sure, it’s all at least partly true. But they’re used as excuses.
What does “used as excuses” mean? Unless you’re suggesting that they’re purposely abusing the goodwill of fans and backers to make self-serving decisions or unwelcome improvements, or slack off and take longer than is reasonably necessary to make the best games possible, then how is reacting to (and publicly explaining) difficult production realities being used as an excuse? One doesn’t have to use words like “laziness” or “incompetence” to clearly be implying them. Frankly, either you believe they’re doing their best under challenging circumstances or you don’t, even if you’re unhappy with the results.
What does “used as excuses” mean?
What I said was: I’ve had it with the sweeping statements about controlling publishers and hardworking developers and backers-who-don’t-understand etcetera that have been posted countless times in countless threads by developers and backers alike. Some examples in this thread:
I think Kickstarter is hiting the harders on people who have very little idea of how any software project goes. (tomimt)
It is just impossible to know and predict truthfully a big software development project in the beginning and even in the middle of it. (teme)
Creating software, the story, the design, the art around the game, the gameplay is creative work and it’s very very hard to estimate creative work. (giom)
what backers don’t seem to realize (and I stress this isn’t their fault) is that Kickstarter budgets are only meant to complete a project. (Agustin)
Unless you’re suggesting that they’re purposely abusing the goodwill of fans and backers to make self-serving decisions or unwelcome improvements, or slack off and take longer than is reasonably necessary to make the best games possible, then how is reacting to (and publicly explaining) difficult production realities being used as an excuse? One doesn’t have to use words like “laziness” or “incompetence” to clearly be implying them.
I’m not implying anything of the kind. I said Agustin was unrealistic, which is clearly not the same thing as lazy or incompetent, words which belong in the same category as sweeping statements about backers-who-don’t-understand and the unique industry of game development. I try to be specific when criticizing and I could give more concrete examples, but I’m not sure it would be appreciated.
And why should I be held accountable for NOT using certain words? Sounds like a case of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Please see the link to the Bracken Tor thread, where I got accused of the same thing.
Frankly, either you believe they’re doing their best under challenging circumstances or you don’t, even if you’re unhappy with the results.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
I never really bought that, but it still came as a shock when Tim Schafer and his company of 60+ people (including planners and bookkeepers) designed a 15 million game when they had only 3 million dollars.
See, that’s the point right there. This is not some green horned dev at his first game - industry giants and legends like Tim Schafer have this happen to them, too, and for a reason - it really, really is hard to estimate how long a game will take, due to so many factors that it’d take me ages to ennumerate. I even feel kind of dumb mentioning this, since most everyone is aware of this. It IS very different from so many other domains, where estimates can be more closely followed and deadlines respected. Besides, we’re talking Kickstarter - indie devs going with what little they got. Projects finishing in estimated time are the obvious exception, not the rule.
And this kind of uncertainty is ubiquitous throughout game development, we just never hear from it because publishers don’t like being transparent. Nevermind Asylum, here’s how a 500 million dollar game can go wrong: http://kotaku.com/the-messy-true-story-behind-the-making-of-destiny-1737556731 .
I’m not taking sides here, just trying to put things into perspective and reminding everyone we’re all human, we err, and we mostly mean well while we do it.
I was going to type an angry rant, but I’ve decided not to. I’ll just say that I generally agree with Karlok here, and that I’m beyond fed up with listening to the gaming industry describe itself as this magical universe in which it’s inherently impossible to produce quality stuff on time, on budget and on spec. That’s such bullshit.
I never really bought that, but it still came as a shock when Tim Schafer and his company of 60+ people (including planners and bookkeepers) designed a 15 million game when they had only 3 million dollars.
See, that’s the point right there. This is not some green horned dev at his first game - industry giants and legends like Tim Schafer have this happen to them, too, and for a reason - it really, really is hard to estimate how long a game will take, due to so many factors that it’d take me ages to ennumerate. I even feel kind of dumb mentioning this, since most everyone is aware of this. It IS very different from so many other domains, where estimates can be more closely followed and deadlines respected. Besides, we’re talking Kickstarter - indie devs going with what little they got. Projects finishing in estimated time are the obvious exception, not the rule.
And this kind of uncertainty is ubiquitous throughout game development, we just never hear from it because publishers don’t like being transparent. Nevermind Asylum, here’s how a 500 million dollar game can go wrong: http://kotaku.com/the-messy-true-story-behind-the-making-of-destiny-1737556731 .
I’m not taking sides here, just trying to put things into perspective and reminding everyone we’re all human, we err, and we mostly mean well while we do it.
Destiny Devs were rife with internal politics and friction among them, they even kicked out Marty and paid for it, it wasn’t much of a mismanagement and broken promises of what happens in KS projects. People like karlok are actually frustrated with the punch lines and big promises in KS pitches which Devs either totally never deliver or go 180.
And you can always look up for reviews and cancel preorder at last moment, but KS transactions cant be reversed as easily.
I agree KS have become con game, there are plenty of scam stories for litmus test but again by now most of gamers should know it.
I mean if Tim will start another KS, you should know what to expect if he pulls the same thing again, and one should not complain.
Its like preorder of fantasies you want to play which can be just a pipedream and would never come to fruition.
So if you have bet on the wrong horse, deal with it.
I was going to type an angry rant, but I’ve decided not to. I’ll just say that I generally agree with Karlok here, and that I’m beyond fed up with listening to the gaming industry describe itself as this magical universe in which it’s inherently impossible to produce quality stuff on time, on budget and on spec. That’s such bullshit.
No the gaming industry is not a magical exception. It’s the norm in software. It’s inherently impossible to produce quality stuff on time, on budget and on spec when it comes to developing any new software. There’s a lot of books discussing that “The mythical man month”, “No silver bullet”. Creating a spec that’s detailed enough to be implemented on time, on spec and on budget is tantamount to actually writing the software.
I’ve worked for ten years as a software engineer, consultant and project manager at times. I’ve never seen a complex software project implemented on time, on budget and on spec. Of course this is for software that does something new (which is by definition the case of game), I’m not talking about web development where people use a CMS to create a website after having done this a thousand times…
It kind of grates me that people can’t seem to understand that creative endeavors are by definition hard to estimate. So, to summarize, I know people here don’t like hearing this but it’s the truth, it’s not bullshit and that’s just the way how it is.
Now regarding Kickstarter, you can either back knowing that things will be late or not back. But don’t come back complaining about something that’s definitely going to happen.
I’ve backed 40 projects on Kickstarter for a total of $1300 (about $35/month) and I’ve had 15 projects that were successful, 2 that were failures and 23 projects that haven’t been released yet (with some very much delayed). I’m happy with the successful projects (even if I have some criticisms about some games like Moebius I’m happier that this game was developed than if it had never been made). I feel that thanks to Kickstarter we got a lot of great games this past years that would not have been made otherwise and I’m happy about this. That’s why I spend money backing games that I like and artists that I like.
I’m not implying anything of the kind. I said Agustin was unrealistic, which is clearly not the same thing as lazy or incompetent, words which belong in the same category as sweeping statements about backers-who-don’t-understand and the unique industry of game development. I try to be specific when criticizing and I could give more concrete examples, but I’m not sure it would be appreciated.
Well, really specifics are the only way to discuss issues productively. Anything else just leads to an endless cycle of rhetoric and talking points.
But I’m actually making a general point, not trying to defend any particular developer or any particular game. My point is that by calling the explanations offered “excuses”, you are implying (whether intentionally or not, it’s a loaded word in this context) that the reasons given are not valid enough to actually justify the decisions/delays/changes, etc. in question.
Now, I think that it’s imperative for developers to offer their explanations humbly and honestly about their mistakes. But for the most part (with one glaring exception that I’ve already publicly taken to task), I’ve seen that from them. So I don’t feel angry about it; I can actually relate to the multitude of behind-the-scenes challenges that many people don’t know or care anything about.
EDIT: I’ve just changed the thread title to better reflect the more general nature of this conversation.
What comes shining through the tone of the updates, the second Kickstarter (for me that qualifies as taking advantage of backers; you can’t keep a company afloat on KS money), the switch to another engine after 5 years, and even through small details (Scratches no longer available) is that you are being unrealistic, you are not good at planning ahead, and not on top of things.
I’m not going to play that game of “you used this particular word taken out of context” and “it doesn’t matter what I implied, I never used that exact phrasing” — we all have enough years of forums to know well where that leads. Believe me when I tell you that I’ve been listening to every concern and opinion voiced; if you don’t care for general (yet solid) arguments, then allow me to get as specific as possible:
First — and this also goes to every poster who complained that my Kickstarter updates are long-winded and don’t provide accurate information — you may want to discuss this on the campaign itself because it doesn’t reflect the general opinion. Quite the contrary, judging by comments and activity on each update, backers seem to enjoy them very much, to the point that when I suggested I would be sending smaller posts with bullet points, the majority demanded that I maintain the current format. If you don’t care to read the updated or you find them boring, fine — but then it’s not fair when you come here to say the project is dead or that I’m taking advantage of backers. Those updates take time, they’re entire articles chock-full with screenshots and videos from Asylum as well as an detailed progress reports on various aspects of the development. Trust me, it would be much easier for me to show up every now and then just saying “Hey, we’re alive! Asylum will be finished! Ta-da! *poof*”. Bottom line is: backers appreciate what we do and how we’re doing it. Feel free to peruse the comments of the last two updates if you doubt my word.
Before you misquote me, I’m not saying that “I don’t care about the complains from backers in this thread”, but the majority has spoken and in many ways Kickstarter acts like a democracy. Same goes for the Charles Dexter Ward campaign: well before launching it, I consulted the plans with our backers and the overwhelming majority was happy with the news. Again, feel free to peruse the comments in that series of updates. And the answer is a resounding “yes” — I would not have proceeded with the new campaign had the majority expressed discontent.
Also, since the discussion is tangentially addressing the situation with Last Crown/Bracken Tor and the word “unrealistic” is being tossed around so much, let me give you a shock of reality because you’re quick to summarize personal lives, companies and entire years into the misinformed conclusion that “developers don’t plan ahead”. You say you’ve had it with controlling publishers? Well, in our “real” reality controlling publishers have jeopardized our respective businesses and in some cases terminated them. Both Jonathan and Matt had to sue a publisher to get decent money from their games, wasting time and health. I know that for a fact because I was this close to sue the same publisher, yet I didn’t have the energy back then — I still have an unpaid invoice for a considerable sum since 2007 lying in my drawer. Other developers weren’t that lucky, though, not even seeing a dime from work that took them years and forced to leave unfinished projects and the game industry altogether. Do you know how many cases like that I’ve heard over the years? Dozens. Just recently Jan Kavan had to publicly denounce Lace Mamba because he wasn’t being paid. I know the guys who did this and they’re still in the business. Two publishers sold boxed editions of Scratches across Europe without an agreement. Can you guess how much money I made from those sales? Do you have any idea how much it costs to build a case against an international company? Publishers can get away with such things because they know that.
Oh, but you’re fed up with such things…
I don’t know the personal situation of Jonathan and Matt but I doubt they could sustain development of their respective projects with money earned from their past games, which means they had to resort to secondary jobs. Can you imagine how difficult it must be to develop these games when you have another job? Like someone else said above, you can’t estimate that easily how much time creative work involves. Sometimes you’re not inspired, sometimes you’re just burned out, and suddenly *snap* an entire month disappeared just like that.
Senscape // Founder // Designer | Working on: Asylum | Twitter: @AgustinCordes
What comes shining through the tone of the updates, the second Kickstarter (for me that qualifies as taking advantage of backers; you can’t keep a company afloat on KS money), the switch to another engine after 5 years, and even through small details (Scratches no longer available) is that you are being unrealistic, you are not good at planning ahead, and not on top of things.
Moreover, sometimes we must wrestle with adverse economical situations and everyday annoyances happening around us. Of course, we all have to in our respective jobs and lives, but it’s considerably more difficult when you’re trying to run a small company and even worse when you must pay salaries and maintain a team. Shame on me for not anticipating in my worst case scenario that salaries in Argentina would double since the Kickstarter launched, especially programmers who are getting jobs overseas because very few companies here can meet their demands.
People often denounce free-to-play, complain about ads and other less honorable ways to commercialize games but, guess what, those are far less risky productions than trying to make ends meet with a niche market like adventure games. Make this clone, invest this much, and make that much money. It’s pure mathematics and most successful game companies work like that: by exploiting every dollar they can get from their user base. Do you know why I’m investing so much and risking everything I’ve got in Asylum? Because I love what I do. I think fans of adventure games will also love it and I can’t wait to hear what they think. But the in-between becomes so unbearable at times like you wouldn’t believe it.
Right, but developers love giving excuses…
However, the single statement that rubbed me the wrong way and literally makes my blood boil is how you’re implying that Scratches is no longer available for sale because I don’t know how to plan ahead. It probably didn’t occur to you that I don’t own the full rights to the game and a fundamental disagreement has left it in legal limbo. That I don’t have the energy or resources to embark on a trial but there’s nothing more I’d want than seeing Scratches for sale and newcomers enjoying it — to the point where I’ve been saying that I wouldn’t mind if they downloaded the game for free. It didn’t occur to you perhaps that this situation hurts me to no end, not so much for the money that I’m not making anymore (even though I did have plans for it) but a personal work that is currently nowhere to be found and is close to becoming abandonware.
But your rash conclusion is that I’m not on top of things…
Well, Betje, my own conclusion is that I don’t want to discuss this with you anymore.
Senscape // Founder // Designer | Working on: Asylum | Twitter: @AgustinCordes
To the rest of you, I don’t blame you if you couldn’t care less about this drama. After all, there are dozens of games released every week and one or two less developers wouldn’t make much difference. As a longtime fan of adventures, I can relate to the frustration and demands often voiced because I simply want to play better games. Sometimes I find myself in the difficult position of criticizing the work of a colleague and must consider aspects that, at least on the surface, seem like plain bad decisions (especially when it comes to game design) and everyday realities of the game industry. Yes, it’s become a cliché by now, but that doesn’t make it any easier: this industry has become wholly unpredictable and independent developers (more than any other industry for sure) often have to juggle with wildly disparate tasks, from managing a company and accounting to programming and writing.
I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe. Publishers making huge profits in Italy until the market completely and utterly disappeared. Steam turning from the most exclusive portal in the industry to a crowded App Store. The retail market rising and falling. The birth of general purpose engines that have fundamentally changed the way we make games. The beginning of the indie market up to its heyday and its current decline. The role of the publisher going from mandatory to expendable to necessary again. All those moments will be lost in time… like posts in a forum… Time to go.
Senscape // Founder // Designer | Working on: Asylum | Twitter: @AgustinCordes
You forgot to mention major changes in computer operating systems, Agustin. 
“Rainy days should be spent at home with a cup of tea and a good book.” -Bill Watterson
It kind of grates me that people can’t seem to understand that creative endeavors are by definition hard to estimate. So, to summarize, I know people here don’t like hearing this but it’s the truth, it’s not bullshit and that’s just the way how it is.
Nope. TV does it. Every week of every year. Shows that are creatively and artistically far, far, far beyond anything the gaming industry has ever made manage to produce 10, 13 or even 22 episodes a year. On time. On budget. On spec.
So unless you feel like explaining to, say, Damon Lidelof, that fixing a bug is more complicated than making 121 episodes of Lost (just think for a second of all the moving parts involved in any of those), you’ll have to recognise that maybe the game industry just needs to figure out how to work better.
It’s interesting that you described video games as complex software. It’s true that software development can have unforeseen delays. But there’s one thing that TV figured long ago: you never start production until you’re done with development. By the time a show finishes its pilot, it has pretty much figured out its entire infrastructure; it just needs to produce content. If we try to apply that to games, it means that, by the time the game starts production, software development is limited to something on the level of, as you said, using a CMS—all the work on the engine, compatibility, stability, etc. would be done by that point.
Think about it: the pilot that shows use to get greenlit actually gets aired—and with the hard burden of convincing viewers to stick around for more. How would that work for games? How many games could take the prototype they showed their publisher to get greenlit and release that, as-is, as the game’s demo? And what about Kickstarters, that get greenlit based on some half-baked design document? Maybe the gaming industry is doing something wrong. Maybe it rushes into production far, far, far too early. (And that’s probably just one of many problems.)
I know the TV model seems weird and wasteful. (How much time and money lost developing shows that never go to pilot? How much time and money wasted on pilots that never go to series?) But it works, and every attempt at ditching it has failed. It’s given us Mad Men, and Breaking Bad, and Buffy, and Lost, and Parks & Rec, and so many more shows. On time. On budget. On spec.
I can’t believe that games getting delayed, getting features cut, etc. is some sort of natural phenomenon that can’t be prevented. It’s just a young industry needing to figure out how it needs to organise its work. I’m OK with waiting for it to get there. But complacency is certainly not going to help—and that is something I’m not OK with.
Ok, I’m not a big fan of TV shows but from what the ones I’ve seen so far, quality tends to be widely unequal from episodes to episodes. I think games are more similar to Movies than to TV shows and from what I know, movies being over budget or delayed is a rather common phenomenon.
Also, from what I know of this model:
a) As you said, they’ve already created a pilot. Games on Kickstarter are rarely at the pilot-stage, they’re more at the stage before creating the pilot. We could imagine having multiple kickstarters, one for the pilot and one for the actual game after that but that doesn’t work because it’s much harder to raise money after the second kickstarter.
Whatever way you want to cut it, you need money to create an initial prototype. You could say that the answer is to have publishers fund the prototype but then that goes back to the fact that publishers who want to make money will not invest in a niche genre like Adventure Games (except puzzle-lite exploration games like Life Is Strange or games from Telltale).
b) They tend to have multiple writers which gives them redundancy in case of writers block (that’s not something that an indie adventure game can afford). This is the way to mitigate the problem with the fact that inspiration and creative process is something that is hard to do on-demand by introducing redundancy.
But, you know, maybe the best is that you just don’t back projects on Kickstarter… If it makes you so annoyed, then just don’t do that…
Nope. TV does it. Every week of every year. Shows that are creatively and artistically far, far, far beyond anything the gaming industry has ever made manage to produce 10, 13 or even 22 episodes a year. On time. On budget. On spec.
I don’t think that that is a valid comparison.
Like giom I have been involved in countless software projects, some on time and budget, some even under time and budget, and some massively late and over budget. What it in general comes down to in my experience, is whether or not you are doing something new or something that you have done a thousand times before.
If you have done it many times before, then you also know exactly how long it will take + (at least) double that to allow for unexpected problems. The problem is however that in software development you are often doing things that you have never done before, using new tools, developing for a new platform, or simply making a type of program that you have never made before, and it is impossible to foresee what problems you might encounter or how long things will take if you have never done it before.
TV however never does anything that they haven’t done a million times before. They know exactly how long it will take to film an episode, they know exactly how long it will take to build a set etc. Not to mention that they have budgets that far exceeds those of small indie developers, so if they are a bit late, they can just throw in some extra resources to get back on schedule.
So like giom said:
No the gaming industry is not a magical exception. It’s the norm in software.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
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