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There are no easy/hard puzzles, there is only the amonut of info the designer provides..

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anyone agree with that?

For me I agree (big time) ,especially after replaying TSoMI ! ,I found many puzzles are slightly hinted (by the design) to, and what makes them awesome is that ,the ‘risk’ of trying them out is very rewarding when it turns out right.

One of the 1sts in the game, is when you need to drug the dogs (and you knew you need to) but then only when you listen to the prisoner and tells that his is jailed because of grabbing the prohibited yellow flower you start to think how! ,it starts to make sense. and even when you apply the flower substance to the meat, Guybursh doesn’t go out like “i have a poisoning chuck of meat!”, you just have to collect your infos and thoughts, and go for it.

That also made me want to reply Riven because I think if the player would had given some infos through the game, from time to time, the game wouldn’t had been hard ‘at all’.

The question remains if that statement is 100% correct, how can developers and designers create one game that satisfies all players; Hardcore and Amateur (without giving a direct hint sys) and the another question eventually, does/will they want to or not?.

     
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Advie - 07 May 2014 01:20 PM

The question remains if that statement is 100% correct, how can developers and designers create one game that satisfy all players; Hardcore and Amateur (without giving a direct hint sys) and the another question eventually, does/will they want to it or not?.

No. Big fat NO.

Look at it this way: Some people like blue as their favorite color. Some like red, some yellow, some green. So you can’t satisfy everyone - the color palette of your game will please some people more than others. However, you could mix everyones favorite colors together, ending up with a palette of greys, browns and blacks. If everyone did this, all games would be grey, brown and black. Now every game is alike and satisfies everyone mildly, instead of some being loved, some tolerated as average and others hated. Great, right?  Thumbs Up

     
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Zifnab - 07 May 2014 01:34 PM

Look at it this way: Some people like blue as their favorite color. Some like red, some yellow, some green. So you can’t satisfy everyone - the color palette of your game will please some people more than others. However, you could mix everyones favorite colors together, ending up with a palette of greys, browns and blacks. If everyone did this, all games would be grey, brown and black. Now every game is alike and satisfies everyone mildly, instead of some being loved, some tolerated as average and others hated. Great, right? Thumbs Up

Glad you understood my question at the 1st place Wink

Great answer ,yea! , but I can not like ,because they will be taking the easy way out .They might wanna work harder and create some ‘piece of art’ which then who wouldn’t like, should be his problem.

     

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I’m pretty sure there are puzzles that are easy (at least to some people) even if the game designers give no information about it outside the puzzle itself. I definitely think it is possible to make a puzzle “hard” just by not giving the player enough information, but it is also possible to have a hard puzzle where you understand exactly what you are supposed to do, but actually doing it is difficult.

In Riven a lot of the difficulty lies in the fact that they DO give you plenty of info to solve the puzzles throughout the game, but you have to notice it and recognize it as relevant. To make the game easier you don’t have to give more information, just make the information there is more obvious. Which, if done to too great a degree is going to make the game less enjoyable for some people (and more enjoyable for others, too, I guess).

I think it goes without saying that giving more or less information DOES effect a puzzle’s difficulty, but I’m not sure I’d agree that that is the only factor.

     
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TSoMI is The Secret of Monkey Island right? Even when we are talking about big names like this, I’d appreciate mentioning the full name once before the acronyms.

And while I agree that often a puzzle is too hard just because players were not provided with enough information, it is not always that simple.

     

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Even with the easiest puzzle there is some kind of info, Visual info it might be the case sometime, or those trial and error puzzles can provide some sort of info with each and every try.

The famous puzzles such ‘the key is on the other side of the door’ needs info all the same , imagine then a game tells you ‘just’ the door is closed, even if you need to look at keyhole so it provides you this kind of info (which is another step into the difficulty design), you cant just try to push a pen into the keyhole without any of idea what for .

Mister Ed - 07 May 2014 02:40 PM

but it is also possible to have a hard puzzle where you understand exactly what you are supposed to do, but actually doing it is difficult.

Can you provide me with an example of a puzzle that is hard not because it lacks the required infos! ,even if these infos are just a matter of some conclusion; but I think at the end the player just needs something to make his/her assumption on.

I will be happy if you read my earlier post about The way an adventure game shouldn’t be and we might be able exclude the puzzle that relies on General Infos as at Black Mirror and others.

     
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Advie - 07 May 2014 01:20 PM

anyone agree with that?

For me I agree (big time) ,especially after replaying TSoMI ! ,I found many puzzles are slightly hinted (by the design) to, and what makes them awesome is that ,the ‘risk’ of trying them out is very rewarding when it turns out right.
...
The question remains if that statement is 100% correct, how can developers and designers create one game that satisfies all players; Hardcore and Amateur (without giving a direct hint sys) and the another question eventually, does/will they want to or not?.

I totally agree with your post. I love it when puzzle solutions are slightly hinted at by the design. They aren’t straight out solutions from clicking a hint button, but are nudges in the right direction that come from the player trying different ways of solving puzzles or from examining the scenes.

     
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My favourite example of extremely hard, and unfair, puzzle is from the original King’s Quest. It’s of course the infamous gnome’s name puzzle, which is pretty much impossible to solve for I’d dare to say most people. The puzzle is given only one hint and even that hint is given in a location the player is very unlikely to connect with the gnome. And even if you’d manage to guess that the hint is meant for the name puzzle and you happen to know the name Rumpeltiltskin, you still won’t be able to solve it despite you’d spell it backwards, as the solution requires yet another component, which is not in my recollection even hinted in the game.

Now yes, that puzzle could have been made easier, but even with the hint of the additional step it would have been pretty difficult. But at least it would have been fair.

     
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Advie - 07 May 2014 01:20 PM

anyone agree with that?

Not really. I’m sure there are many examples of puzzles that are difficult because you don’t have all the information and have to guess, but there are also plenty of puzzles where you are given every possible information and they are still though to solve. The Pandora Directive are I think a perfect example of this especially two of the box puzzles, the “travel plan” box and the “Mayan calendar” box.

What makes the “travel plan” puzzle difficult is that you have to make a leap of logic that isn’t obvious, but all the information is there, in fact it is staring you right in the face attached to the box while you are solving the puzzle, you just have to figure out how to use the information yourself.

The “Mayan calendar” box it is even better example, because here you not only have all the information, but it is also pretty obvious what you have to do and how you have to use the information, but it actually takes a lot of work to actually do it, a task I might add that is much easier to do on paper than in the game. I guess you could even argue that what makes this puzzle hard, is that you have too much information that you need to connect to each other.

My point is that it really depends on the type of puzzle, and especially isolated puzzles can be difficult simply because they are difficult, regardless of how much information you are given.

Zifnab - 07 May 2014 01:34 PM
Advie - 07 May 2014 01:20 PM

The question remains if that statement is 100% correct, how can developers and designers create one game that satisfy all players; Hardcore and Amateur (without giving a direct hint sys) and the another question eventually, does/will they want to it or not?.

No. Big fat NO.

Look at it this way: Some people like blue as their favorite color. Some like red, some yellow, some green. So you can’t satisfy everyone - the color palette of your game will please some people more than others. However, you could mix everyones favorite colors together, ending up with a palette of greys, browns and blacks. If everyone did this, all games would be grey, brown and black. Now every game is alike and satisfies everyone mildly, instead of some being loved, some tolerated as average and others hated. Great, right?  Thumbs Up

Well said, and I totally agree.

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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Well, theres some puzzles that are difficult on the merit of their cleverness, and some puzzles that are difficult because of the poor/lacking design. Difficulty debates are generally not worth it… its completely subjective, and theres always people complaining a game is too easy. But in extreme cases you can get an idea of the consensus.

     
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I think the more abstract the solution, the harder the puzzle is regardless of the info provided by the designer.

As for creating a game that caters to everyone - it’s a tricky balancing act. Have you ever been given a hint to a puzzle in a game and become incredibly disappointed because you felt the hint gives away the entire solution?

Hints could be provided if the puzzle is completely devoid of any context to how the world works. One of those hints where you hear it and think “Well, I would have never figured that out on my own.”

Some players require more hand holding and others want less or none. I think developers should give the player some choice. An option to control the frequency or quality of hints would be an effective start. Some games are really good at giving the player control of how many clues they receive by having a character you can talk to who is basically the “what do I do next?” guy. You determine when and when not to access a clue. However, sometimes it’s just as fun to uncover a clue and having a go-to-guy might kill that fun. Balancing act, right?

I’ve also gone on about optional puzzles that challenge experienced players in a few threads and that might be something to explore if the developers are prioritising challenge over story.

     
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Typical “Myst clone” puzzles, or logic puzzles can “deny” this theory:

Game “A”:


Game “B”:


They’re both the same kind of puzzle, but regardless of “info the designer provides”, the puzzle in “game B” is harder than the puzzle in “game A” simply because it’s tougher to solve.

Inventory puzzles are different story, though. They demand quite much of the design details to “come together” in order to “click” with players, or bring the “light bulb” moment. And Advie has a point to an extent with this, but only unfair design will keep the essential info out from the players, or at least - not giving indications that we need too look for further info.

Then again, I remember a game (Toonstruck) where there’s a puzzle right after the beginning which is impossible to solve until a bit later in the game, or at least until you acquire an item - and I don’t really think it’s “unfair” game design - it just motivates you to keep looking further.

     

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Advie - 07 May 2014 04:32 PM

Can you provide me with an example of a puzzle that is hard not because it lacks the required infos! ,even if these infos are just a matter of some conclusion; but I think at the end the player just needs something to make his/her assumption on.

diego gives a good example. A puzzle can be mechanically difficult, regardless of the information the designer gives you. Sliding puzzles (to mention one type that I encounter a lot in something like a Professor Layton game) have wildly varying levels of difficulty to them, which has nothing to do with the information given.

     
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Advie - I totally disagree with your original premise and, to support my point, I shall name one game:

Black Dahlia!

     

Life is what it is.

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Yeah, the lockpicking puzzle in Still Life was pretty funny even when you knew what it did. Also I think some people found it quite hard to understand the logic of Obsidian while it gives plenty of hints on what to do and how to do it.

But I agree that subtle hints towards solution are almost always good. And I think it’s very miuch possible to implement several difficulties in one game, so that you can get more of those subtle hints if you need them and the hardcore players can try to solve it without any help.

Truthfully this still has problems, for example people like me Grin. In an adventure I’m always afraid to choose the easier difficulty setting because I think I’m missing content then (whether it’s true or not) and I almost never use hints even though I’d need one, I’m just stubborn that way. I do abuse the hot spot finder though since “pixel finding” is the main reason for me for being stuck

     

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I disagree with the thread title. Diego’s jigsaw examples proves why.

Advie - 07 May 2014 01:20 PM

The question remains if that statement is 100% correct, how can developers and designers create one game that satisfies all players; Hardcore and Amateur (without giving a direct hint sys) and the another question eventually, does/will they want to or not?.

They can’t and they shouldn’t try.
Tastes differ, and it’s impossible to please *everyone*. Attempting to do so will at best result in a game that’s liked but not loved. Game designers (as well as movie directors, book authors, musicians, etc.) should not worry about pleasing everyone, since that’s not going to work anyway.
They should just try to make the piece of art that they want to make, and hope it strikes a chord with people.

thejobloshow - 07 May 2014 07:20 PM

Some players require more hand holding and others want less or none. I think developers should give the player some choice. An option to control the frequency or quality of hints would be an effective start. Some games are really good at giving the player control of how many clues they receive by having a character you can talk to who is basically the “what do I do next?” guy. You determine when and when not to access a clue. However, sometimes it’s just as fun to uncover a clue and having a go-to-guy might kill that fun. Balancing act, right?

^ This.

     

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Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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