Adventure Gamers - Forums

I’ve been playing Adventure Games since about 1992, and was there in the mid 90s watching as the landscape shifted to 3D games. And watched Adventure Games as a dominant genre faded away to one of the most endangered. The last 5 or so years have been really exciting with indie devs picking up the torch to breath new life into the Adventure game. HD picture quality has brought 2D animation back in a big way across the video game landscape. And crowd funding with Kickstarter, and the like, has helped matters further, by breathing life into dormant franchise and giving old game makers new outlets. Exciting times for this old Graphic Adventure fan.

What’s also exciting is that for the first time in AGES. Adventure Games have found critical and commercial success in the quote unquote ‘mainstream’. Specifically with Telltale’s The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us. There’s something to be said that Walking Dead‘s success came initially off the back of the TV show’s popularity… but the way it captured the public’s imagination soon after is a testament to its production quality. And Wolf Among Us‘s success of course coming off fans of The Walking Dead looking for the next game of its type. And it too coming off as a well scripted memorable game.

Unfortunately, as a fan of Adventure Games of the old school I have trouble getting enthused by these games. Which is weird also because I’m a HUGE fan of both game’s source material. I’ve been reading Walking Dead and Fables comics for more then 10 years! But I’ve watched my friends play, and watched online playthroughs, and while the story is undoubtedly well presented and engaging. The gameplay just doesn’t seem to be there. You enter a scene, examine all the context spots, talk to all the characters, make your choices. Then occasionally play through a series of quicktime events when the game wants to do action scenes.

I don’t really want to make this an argument about ‘what constitutes an Adventure Game’. That argument is largely pointless and doesn’t lead anywhere. But I want to draw comparison to is Japan’s popularized video game genre, Visual Novels. Which is one, if not THEE, most populare form of Video Game in Japan today. For the most part Visual Novels are a form of Interactive Fiction that rely heavy on narration and play choice. Graphics typically being static character images over backgrounds. These games are also pretty light on gameplay, usually with the player making dialog choices, and sometimes examining scenes for context sensitive clues and whatnot. There’s a lot of variety, some Visual Novels being puzzle based, or even having RPG elements. As a genre it has its diversity, but also its cliches. Visual Novels that might be familiar with North Americans include the Phoenix Wright series, and Snatcher on the Sega CD. Possibly even Policenauts for the PlayStation 1, even though it was never released in North America. Hakuoki: Memories of the Shinsengumi was released on 3DS in Europe earlier this year, its a dating sim (a Visual Novel sub-genre) set in feudal Japan.

It was playing Policenauts that it started to dawn on me how similar Telltale’s recent offerings were to that gameplay style. Policenauts regularly presents you scenes that you click around to find clues, background details, and characters to interact with. Occasionally this is broken up with ‘Shooting Gallery’ sections where you shoot attackers like a lightgun game. The story is the main selling point, its action scenes there to break up the dialog occasionally, much like Walking Dead and Wolf Among Us’s quick-time-event sections. Sure Telltale’s games are graphically more impressive then the usual Japanese style Visual Novel, but that’s just window paint at the end of the day. The gameplay structure is essentially the same.

Am I crazy in thinking that what the mainstream really wants out of Adventure Games is closer to that of the Visual Novel? Not the puzzle laden adventures of yor?

What do you think this means about the future of Adventure Games in the mainstream? Is it a fad? Will Telltale blow its load with its next batch of games and burn the genre out again? Should more indie adventure game look to the tropes of the Visual Novel for inspiration in game design? Maybe find a middle ground somewhere.

What Telltale has been doing recently speaks to the power of story and cinematics in modern gaming. Most obviously David Cage but also Uncharted, GTA, Bioshock, Mass Effect - popular games where the mechanics aren’t extremely groundbreaking but their experiences are transcended through dialogue, character, set pieces and other cinematic elements.

I think that’s what’s selling and traditional graphic adventures and visual novel games were a crude way for gamers in the past to experience something cinematic. How fitting it is that Kojima is responsible for Snatcher.

Now, I don’t think merging a seamless storytelling experience with mechanics is just a fad irregardless of whether Telltale can last the distance - but, it would be nice if traditional adventures with good writing and production values remained with us.

Jim Purcell - 19 December 2013 05:52 AM

Am I crazy in thinking that what the mainstream really wants out of Adventure Games is closer to that of the Visual Novel? Not the puzzle laden adventures of yor?

No I don’t think you are crazy It does seem like the market for these kinds of games is much larger then the market for traditional adventure games with puzzles. However the big question as I see it, is how many of the players that play these games, that will also realise there is a whole genre called adventure games, and will try and fall in love with it.

I haven’t got any answer to that question myself, but I don’t think that traditional adventure games will suddenly become mainstream again. 

Jim Purcell - 19 December 2013 05:52 AM

What do you think this means about the future of Adventure Games in the mainstream? Is it a fad? Will Telltale blow its load with its next batch of games and burn the genre out again? Should more indie adventure game look to the tropes of the Visual Novel for inspiration in game design? Maybe find a middle ground somewhere.

There is already a tendency to make AG easier, to make them less puzzle orientated and focus more on the story telling part. This is I believe not only a result of Telltales success, but also an attempt to attract the more casual or visual novels players. The end result will probably be a diversity of games, where we have traditional games in one end and visual novels in the other, and then a lot of different types of games in the middle.

Whether or not Telltale can maintain their success I believe depends a lot of QTE. Personally I think it is only a question of time before people get tired of QTE as a gameplay mechanics, at least in its current form. So I think a lot depends on whether or not Telltale can renew the formula or come up with some other mechanics. But the pace of the story telling and the decision making formula, is something that I believe is here to stay.

Am I crazy in thinking that what the mainstream really wants out of Adventure Games is closer to that of the Visual Novel? Not the puzzle laden adventures of yor?

I don’t think it’s that per se. A big part of TWD’s success comes from the popularity of both the comics and the series, coupled with a good story and a few great characters. I’m not sure the linear format has THAT much to do with that…
Unless it really IS true that most mainstream gamers aren’t looking for a more cerebral gaming experience, but rather for interactive movies…

What do you think this means about the future of Adventure Games in the mainstream?

I’m not entirely convinced AGs are ever going to be mainstream again, so I’m not sure TTG’s success means all that much.

I’m more curious to see the reception that (the heavily covered in mainstream press) Broken Age will get. It could be the most important thing in getting more mainstream attention to our genre in the foreseeable future, imo. But that’s a matter for a different thread.

Is it a fad? Will Telltale blow its load with its next batch of games and burn the genre out again?

Depends entirely on what direction they head in. If they continue with well-written games featuring thought-provoking choices to be made for characters we actually care about, then sure, I don’t see that going away, no matter what format they release it in.
Also, TTG are just a small part of our genre. Should their format “blow its load and burn out”, it won’t take AG as a whole with it.

Should more indie adventure game look to the tropes of the Visual Novel for inspiration in game design? Maybe find a middle ground somewhere.

Actually, visual novels have been around for quite some time, so I think that if that’s REALLY what the mainstream was looking for, the genre would’ve already broken out of Japan by now. As it is, we’ve seen some visual novels already (and some games that are VERY close to them), but they’re just a fraction of what gets made in Japan.
While visual novels are an important subgenre of adventure games, imo, I don’t think they’re really “the next big thing”.

I wouldn’t mind seeing more of them get translated and released here, of course…

Great discussion so far.  I spent most of my time in a visual novel forum before hopping over here to AG.  So my insight to this is that, I only heard of the TWD series because some small segment of the VN forum described it as a “western visual novel.”  So when you said TWD carries VN traits, you’re right on the money from this perspective.  I also help my friends sell their visual novels/sim games at anime conventions.  One of the easier selling points is, if the fan likes to read books, comics/manga, they can jump into visual novels easily.  From there, it’s pushing them into AG category if possible, but yes overall they are rather casual players that love a good story.

I actually believe TWD sorta fails as a visual novel though.  Visual Novels’ best traits involve a lot more branching/endings and the important choices that change a story in an entirely new direction.  TWD did a wonderful job in adding a timer/no answer as a legitimate choice, increasing the intensity of the moment. However, TWD had no replay value to me, while good VNs actually do.  I hope this is not a spoiler but after knowing that my choices don’t affect the overall outcome of which characters survived at the end, I didn’t need to play it again.  Well made visual novels make you want to go at it again to find out new outcomes, it can also add more to the story that you wouldn’t have known otherwise.  I believe those that played Zero Escape: Virtue’s Last Reward knows how this works perfectly.  I think this improved slightly in TWD 400 days as we determined which characters stick around or not, but I’ll have to wait and see how it shows up in TWD season 2.  It makes the game increasingly larger and knowing that TTG is doing more projects, I do wonder if they have the manpower and time to do it properly.

While I don’t know if traditional AGs will become mainstream again, I do think the variety of AGs available can grow exponentially in the newer forms coming out of the woodwork.  Sure it won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, but some people are more than willing to experiment, and that will keep AG alive.

I do think comparing to visual novels from Japan is sorta comparing apples to oranges though.  It’s quite a different target audience, the fact VNs can jump in price to $50-100+ for a PC game for static 2D art says quite a bit about the market in being peculiar.  But I think japanese AGs like the ones found on the DS/3DS and the PSP/Vita will be the better ones to look into as a possible direction for AGs to grow in. I believe some of them are better AGs than TWD.

Should more indie adventure game look to the tropes of the Visual Novel for inspiration in game design? Maybe find a middle ground somewhere.

I think yes, AG should be studying VNs, but I say this from a cost effective position.  I think VNs, and even Japanese animation, shows that short cuts used in keeping costs down will not lower the value in storytelling.  You can do a lot with less.  Sure you guys are use to animation for everything, like sprites that walk.  While it ups the interactive factor, it isn’t necessarily needed.  It adds an increased cost to pay the programmer and animator.  3D is also an extremely expensive endeavor that more and more AGs are moving into with mixed results in quality and costs.  I think personally, this is what holds AG back from growing in numbers.  It’s still expensive, so newbies are less likely to jump into game dev cause they can’t match what more experienced professionals are able to create as what the AG audience is use to playing in their AGs.  Of course, this is just my impression as an outsider to the genre.

I’ll shut up now lol.

Visual Novels - story and characters
Adventure games - story and characters with puzzles to solve
Puzzle games - puzzles to solve

Three very similair genres that obviously tend to mix in various ways as games progresses over time.

In recent years games have generally without a doubt become easier and shorter. That is both a positive and a negative thing. The positive aspect is that in general they have cut out the things that were boring with old games, instead focusing and strengthening the things which were fun. The negative aspect is that the games tend to get much more shallow as an end result, if it’s not done right.

Whether or not your preferences lies on stories or puzzles (or as most of us here prefer, a combination of both) there is probably a great future awaiting since these kinds of games are starting to rise in popularity once again.

I’ve been playing adventure games since 1986 and change has been the only constant.

The C128 and Infocom were what I cut my teeth on and both are distant memories now.

In the late 1990’s we saw adventure games stop being published in the USA and Europe take over - while Gabriel Knight 3 sold poorly, just a few months later “The Longest Journey” was released and was a best selling game.

Same thing in Japan, in the mid 2000’s Nintendo DS adventure games sold in the millions and I got all my adventure games from Japan or Europe.

Now just recently, some adventure game companies in the USA have made hit adventure games that have been best sellers (The Walking Dead, etc) - so now we have adventure games being released in Japan, Europe and the USA - life is good now.

Currently, PC and iPad adventure game downloads are very popular, the PS3 has seen some huge multimillion dollar large size (over 25 gig) adventure games released on it that have been best sellers and I have a backlog of over 40 adventure games to play (that I’ve bought) with over 80 adventure games waiting to be bought.

Life is pretty good.

Visual Novels - I’ve played one. They are interactive stories with pictures - pretty fun actually. They are not adventure games - they have no puzzles to solve.

A Visual Novel plus puzzles is an adventure game - it is that simple.

At no time has there been no adventure games being published and not popular in the entire world - on some platform somewhere the genre has been popular.

However, today we have huge numbers of adventure games being released and I’m having trouble playing them all.

I’d love to get an iPAD and play adventure games on it - but I don’t have time for another platform right now.

Mikekelly - 19 December 2013 09:48 PM

Visual Novels - I’ve played one. They are interactive stories with pictures - pretty fun actually. They are not adventure games - they have no puzzles to solve.

Well, I’ve played a few more then you (almost three!) and can tell you that many of the most notable Visual Novels are more then ‘interactive stories with pictures’ and do have puzzles (or action sequences!). Some don’t (maybe most?) but some do. Like any genre there is variation.

But my point still stands, Walking Dead and Wolf Among Us can also be described as ‘interactive stories with pictures’ with minimal to no puzzles to speak of. Its not specifically adventure games making a resurgence, but a possible western equivalent of the Visual Novel finding a mass audience.

Siddhi - 20 December 2013 01:43 AM

Great discussion.

Apart from visual novels, there are other interesting combinations too, like L.A.Noire which blended the open world sandbox of GTA with adventure games.

Indeed, but wasn’t LA Noir a critical and commercial failure? Or at least did not meet expectations?

Jim Purcell - 20 December 2013 02:05 AM

Indeed, but wasn’t LA Noir a critical and commercial failure? Or at least did not meet expectations?

Hard to call a game a critical failure when it’s metascore is, depending from a baltform, 89-83%.

Only reason it didn’t get a sequal yet is that the team that build it, Bondi, exploded because of the company got accused from abusing the employees and apparently the boss was a general a-hole. It was a nasty case. But other than that, I recall it has altleast made money for Rockstar.

Regarding examples of visual novels in opening post: Phoenix Wright and Policenauts aren’t visual novels, at least, not in the Japanese sense of the term. Games like that are just considered (graphical) adventures. The same for Jake Hunter. For some reason though, a lot of people in the West use the term visual (sound) novel to refer to all adventure games from Japan…

And despite popular thought, visual/sound novels can have puzzles. 999 is probably the best known example outside of Japan, but Chunsoft’s other sound novels have all kind of puzzles (though not in the ‘classic’ sense). 428 in particular is very tricky, where you have to succesfully guide five protagonists in their adventure foiling a terrorist attack in Shibuya. The puzzle element lies in the connections between the different stories. The first ‘puzzle’ (the tutorial) explains it quite well: you start with the stories of a young man and a policeman on a kidnapping case. The cop is watching the girl who is supposed to hand over the ransom money, but the young man comes to her and tries to hit on her: the cop thinks he’s the kidnapper and arrests the man: both stories end in a game over (the cop having blown his cover, the young man for being arrested). So the puzzle is that you have to make the right choices so both storylines can proceed. And now do that with five protagonists, controlling the flow of information, events and movement of characters for a whole day and tell me sound novels don’t have puzzles (even if it’s not a standard inventory / logic puzzle form) Heck, I still haven’t beaten the first day (of five) in Machi… And I still want to see a game do a detective novel to game transition as interesting as Trick X Logic (where you actually read a prose story and combine keywords from the text to generate deductions).

The thing is, most of these puzzles lie one level above what most people expect from puzzles in a adventure game (i.e. whereas traditionally you overcome a story roadblock by solving a puzzle within the story, 428 allows you change the story itself in order to force an outcome where the roadblock doesn’t exist in the first place)