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Controversial adventure game preferences and opinions?

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hightreason - 09 August 2020 06:29 AM

But I don’t really know that dead ends were ever considered good game design.

Oh yes they were!

They were more of a product of not knowing better yet, a misstep along the path to developing good standards and practices for adventure game design. No one liked them at the time. No one looks back on them fondly nowadays. They were just a product of it being a new genre which hadn’t been quite perfected yet.

No. That is absolutely not true. Sierra continued the dead-end tradition of the text adventures of the 80s. Those ancient text adventures were, and still are, called “unforgiving” for the simple reason that they allowed the unsuspecting player to do something that made the game unwinnable *without letting the player know*. Yes, on purpose. By design.

Example: At the very beginning of Corruption you have 10-15 turns to pick up a package somebody has hidden. Try it later and the package will be gone. In Jinxter a dozen puzzles have two solutions: an obvious one if you have the required inventory object, and a more difficult one. The player doesn’t know this. Of course not, that would spoil the developer’s fun. So when you cut some barbed wire with your cutters you get points for solving the problem, but the wire hurts you during the cutting and the game says: you feel a little less lucky than you did a moment ago. And guess what… hours later (yes hours) you need all the luck you can get. Unforgiving is a euphemism for what I would call vicious schadenfreude.

Back to Sierra. If The Lighthouse ever manages to get enough votes for a community playthrough, I’d advise you to participate and experience Sierra’s famous dead ends yourself. That was in 1996.

 

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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Karlok - 09 August 2020 09:03 AM

Yes, on purpose. By design.

To get people to call their hint line and sell hint books?

I recall Al Lowe saying that at one point Sierra was selling more hint books than copies (which showed how often the first Larry game was pirated). So was this by design to guarantee their income?

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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I don’t know if I believe that myth. Photocopiers existed in the 80s, and it’s not like hint books are hard to copy. If you have a friend with the game you can get the solution too.

     
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its not a myth, its true!
I Had most Sierra hint book, some were (Codename: Iceman) written with black color on a brown page, there is no way to copy it.

LucasArts, Last Crusade hint book you had to read with a Red plastic lens that came with box; also no way you can copy it.

     
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TimovieMan - 09 August 2020 11:02 AM
Karlok - 09 August 2020 09:03 AM

Yes, on purpose. By design.

To get people to call their hint line and sell hint books?

I recall Al Lowe saying that at one point Sierra was selling more hint books than copies (which showed how often the first Larry game was pirated). So was this by design to guarantee their income?

The text adventure scene was dominated by Infocom and most of their games were very hard. Like I said, unforgiving was the norm because in those days it was considered good game design. Yes, really. Buyers got good value for their money: many many hours of gameplay. But people needed help to finish the increasingly popular games. In the docu Get Lamp they talk about the development of Infocom’s Invisiclues. In that respect Sierra did nothing new. Both Infocom and Sierra made a lot of money with their hint books. But first there were special sections in computer magazines and later, in Sierra’s case, help lines. I used to browse 5 or 6 magazines in bookstores when I was stuck in a game, without buying anything. Lots of people did that and you always ran the risk of being thrown out. Once I was even desperate enough to call Sierra’s help line from the Netherlands.  Shifty Eyed For me hint books were a great solution to a frustrating problem.

PS: Most, if not all, hint books couldn’t be copied. Now THAT is a way to make money.

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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TimovieMan - 09 August 2020 11:02 AM
Karlok - 09 August 2020 09:03 AM

Yes, on purpose. By design.

To get people to call their hint line and sell hint books?

I recall Al Lowe saying that at one point Sierra was selling more hint books than copies (which showed how often the first Larry game was pirated). So was this by design to guarantee their income?

The biggest companies certainly made some money by selling hintbooks and having those phone lines where there actually was some real person to answer the call and help out.

I believe these phone services existed even some time in the late 90’s, and some games even have in-game jokes where the protagonist is either calling the hint line or at least contemplating on that.

Anyway, the real reason for dead-ends wasn’t making extra money, it really was good game design. If you search some old computer magazines and such, I’m sure you can find reviews where some of the earliest LucasFilm games are criticised for not having parser, not having enough challenge as there are no deaths and all that, basically in modern terms they are saying that those games are too casual and not satisfying for real gamers.

The same thing happened with some other genre innovations, like hotspot indicators which got rid of pixel hunting. Even though all those are features of a good game from today’s perspective, you can find examples like reviews where it is being called quite the opposite.

I suppose from today’s perspective one of the most debatable, and relatable, features could be autosave spots which get rid of manual saves. I’m not sure how many here would prefer to have dead-ends, but I’m sure there are many who prefer manual saving over autosaves. In the end, they are all things to challenge what is considered good game design historically.

     
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GateKeeper - 09 August 2020 02:06 PM
TimovieMan - 09 August 2020 11:02 AM
Karlok - 09 August 2020 09:03 AM

Yes, on purpose. By design.

To get people to call their hint line and sell hint books?

Anyway, the real reason for dead-ends wasn’t making extra money, it really was good game design.

Isn’t that what I said in reply to a question adressed to me? Let me guess: It isn’t true unless Gatekeeper has confirmed it.  Tongue

     

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GateKeeper - 09 August 2020 02:06 PM

I suppose from today’s perspective one of the most debatable, and relatable, features could be autosave spots which get rid of manual saves. I’m not sure how many here would prefer to have dead-ends, but I’m sure there are many who prefer manual saving over autosaves. In the end, they are all things to challenge what is considered good game design historically.

I prefer having both. Manual saves for when I’m quitting or when I’ve reached a point where I really want to make a save, and autosaves for when I get killed in-game that rewind just a few moments to before the decision that got me killed…

Basically, when that‘s in a game, I don’t mind deaths at all…

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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Vehelon - 09 August 2020 11:34 AM

I don’t know if I believe that myth. Photocopiers existed in the 80s, and it’s not like hint books are hard to copy.

Keep in mind that photocopiers in the 1980’s weren’t as good as those today, or maybe they were deliberately crippled so they couldn’t copy certain colors. What you saw with your eyes wasn’t necessarily what would get copied. If you tried to copy something that they didn’t want you to copy, you’d get an all black page, or an all white page, or possibly a page with black rectangles where the text was supposed to be. Although there were probably professional photocopiers that could manage it, the ones available for home and library use were often crippled so they couldn’t copy everything.

Vehelon - 09 August 2020 11:34 AM

If you have a friend with the game you can get the solution too.

If you had a friend with the game, you could also borrow the game itself, and not have to pay for that either.

Karlok - 09 August 2020 01:45 PM

PS: I agree with Advie. Most, if not all, hint books couldn’t be copied. Now THAT is a way to make money.

That kind of design is also a way to ensure that people who don’t pirate games never buy a 2nd game. They think something like, “I’ve already paid $60 (or $70) for this game and I’m not paying any more. If they make these things impossible to finish without a Hint guide that you have to pay even more for, it’s a ripoff and I’m out.”
And they never buy another game—at least not another Sierra game—for years if not forever.

And what about the kids whose Moms tell them, “That game cost $$$$$! You finish the one you have before I buy you another one.”
Sierra certainly taught those kids to pirate games.

     

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crabapple - 09 August 2020 03:18 PM
Vehelon - 09 August 2020 11:34 AM

If you have a friend with the game you can get the solution too.

If you had a friend with the game, you could also borrow the game itself, and not have to pay for that either.

That’s kind of my point. No doubt a lot of games were pirated, but if I were going to pirate a game I’d also try and get my hints free. I wouldn’t buy a $30 hint book.

     
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‘if’ you have pirated Sierra’s games, you couldn’t have finished them without the copy protection questions that came in every way at sierra’s games, which later made their manuals tricky as their hintbooks, and again you cant photocopy them or the hint books, all your ‘ifs’ has nothing to do with how it was.

Crabapple, you know that Sierra had sold half a million for KQV on release and a million for phantasmagoria, while Lucasarts most selling game only sold 300,000 on release, right, you do know?. my point there were never any problem with Sierra games sellings.

     
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GateKeeper - 09 August 2020 06:14 AM
Origami - 09 August 2020 04:33 AM

How is hating dead ends a controversial opinion? Pretty sure that’s the populat opinion.

Back in the day, dead-ends and unexpected deaths were considered good game design. So presumably there are many who still like them, even if games these days rarely, if ever, have them.

 

I was purely addressing dead-ends. Deaths in-game can be a nuisance but can be helped by saving frequently.
Problem with dead-ends is, you don’t know how far back you did what wrong to reach said dead-end. It’s just a very time-consuming and tedious process of trial and error.

     
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Vehelon - 09 August 2020 11:34 AM

I don’t know if I believe that myth. Photocopiers existed in the 80s, and it’s not like hint books are hard to copy. If you have a friend with the game you can get the solution too.

What about just retyping the text on a typewriter?

     
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crabapple - 09 August 2020 03:18 PM
Karlok - 09 August 2020 01:45 PM

PS: I agree with Advie. Most, if not all, hint books couldn’t be copied. Now THAT is a way to make money.

That kind of design is also a way to ensure that people who don’t pirate games never buy a 2nd game. They think something like, “I’ve already paid $60 (or $70) for this game and I’m not paying any more. If they make these things impossible to finish without a Hint guide that you have to pay even more for, it’s a ripoff and I’m out.”
And they never buy another game—at least not another Sierra game—for years if not forever.

Hm. I don’t think that’s true for a lot of people, can’t prove it. And all games were expensive, it wasn’t just Sierra.

I don’t remember ever buying a Sierra hint book. I was crazy about their quest series and I always got stuck once or twice, but on the whole they were not all that difficult. I did buy Infocom’s Invisiclues whenever they were available in the bookstores, which wasn’t very often in Holland. 

And what about the kids whose Moms tell them, “That game cost $$$$$! You finish the one you have before I buy you another one.”
Sierra certainly taught those kids to pirate games.

Oh come on! You can’t blame companies for the widespread piracy! And kids didn’t have a computer in those early days. If they were lucky Mom and Dad had one and let the kids play some of the games they’d bought for themselves.

 

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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Vehelon - 09 August 2020 09:46 PM

No doubt a lot of games were pirated, but if I were going to pirate a game I’d also try and get my hints free. I wouldn’t buy a $30 hint book.

The didn’t cost $30, more like 8 or 9.

Origami - 10 August 2020 02:15 AM

What about just retyping the text on a typewriter?

LOL! What about asking your friend to give you a hint.

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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