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Should support of an artist be influenced by their beliefs/attitudes?

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I also dislike how people kinda try to ruin the kickstarter campaigns by being very offensive about something or someone they don’t like in the project. Of course one can choose not to support for whatever reason there is but these products are not products of one attribute or person. It always saddens me when there’s a heated debate about something quite irrelevant to the campaign itself because all the negative press migth discourage potential backers. Luckily this thread was at least continued elsewhere.

I would certainly hope that a praised AG gets a (spiritual) sequel even though a guy behind is possibly less than honorable. No one has to personally support it but I’d like that people wouldn’t push others to do the same. That said, stating that one doesn’t like something or discussing an issue calmly is just fine. It’s just that AGs have hard enough time to get themselves out there, I’d like to see them succeed just to delight the gamers - even if there are some dicks onboard.

     

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Iznogood - 30 May 2013 12:34 PM

Then there is the whole issue of self-censorship. I believe in free-speech and that it should apply to all to, also artist, but just because you can say anything you want, then it doesn’t mean that you should just say everything that pops into mind, in order to have a civilized debate some self-restraint is also needed. Imo a bit of self-censorship isn’t a bad thing, eg there has been many occasions here in the forum, where i have felt the urge to call someone an idiot or something similar, but i haven’t, partly because it is not a very productive form of debate, and partly because it would most likely just fall back on myself and damage my reputation.


You avoid name calling because it will fail to achieve what you want to achieve out of a debate - I understand that. I also understand that there are certain limitations that people agree to when taking on a project and that’s fine - you can’t make an episode of Law & Order: SVU seven hours long if it’s for an hour long time slot.
 
However, I’m not as comfortable with someone self-censoring themselves out of intimidation or bullying. I don’t want to suggest that TenNapel is some poor victim here - I think the greater point I’m making is if we believe in creative freedom and free speech then someone like TenNapel will exist and it’s worth it IMO.

     
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thejobloshow - 31 May 2013 04:43 AM

I think the greater point I’m making is if we believe in creative freedom and free speech then someone like TenNapel will exist and it’s worth it IMO.

I wholeheartedly agree

     

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sordy-wordy - 31 May 2013 02:42 AM

The people that are not supporting Armikrog because of political issues, with a hand in your heart: Do you think The Neverhood is a bad game? Do you think Armikrog looks like to be bad game? Do you think it makes a difference about your political point of view if it never gets done? It improves something? Gets people attention about anything? ....

That is really besides the point, if we all believed it would be a terrible game, then no one would support it for that reason, and there would be no reason for this whole discussion. It is also as i see it not really about making a differences, but about how much you will accept about someone involved in a project, and still support the project regardless of anything else.

It is also no longer (purely) about Armikrog and TenNaple, but a more general and philosophic question about where the lines are. 

     

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millenia - 31 May 2013 04:39 AM

I also dislike how people kinda try to ruin the kickstarter campaigns by being very offensive about something or someone they don’t like in the project. Of course one can choose not to support for whatever reason there is but these products are not products of one attribute or person. It always saddens me when there’s a heated debate about something quite irrelevant to the campaign itself because all the negative press migth discourage potential backers. Luckily this thread was at least continued elsewhere.

Well what we do here in this forum, is that we discuss different games, or things related to games (and perhaps sometimes things that aren’t). With the birth of crowdfunding it has also become very relevant to discuss the different kickstarter campaigns. Both to make others aware of these projects, but also to discuss which projects are worth supporting and which aren’t.

Negative input about a project is just as valuable for this discussion as positive is. If only people who have something positive to say, post in these threads, then it would just turn into a promotion for the project, and the threads would become totally irrelevant.

Of course not all comments are equally relevant, like the breast size debate, and there is a difference between explaining why you don’t think a project is worth supporting, and trying to sabotage a project.

Edit: I know it can be hard if you are personally very enthusiastic about a project, especially if that project is struggling to meet its goals, and then someone posts something negative about it. But i would rather have that, then have the threads turn into pure promotion.

     

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thejobloshow - 31 May 2013 04:43 AM

...I think the greater point I’m making is if we believe in creative freedom and free speech then someone like TenNapel will exist and it’s worth it IMO.

I don’t disagree with that, in fact i doubt you will find anyone here in the forum, that will disagree.

     

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Iznogood - 31 May 2013 01:14 PM
millenia - 31 May 2013 04:39 AM

I also dislike how people kinda try to ruin the kickstarter campaigns by being very offensive about something or someone they don’t like in the project. Of course one can choose not to support for whatever reason there is but these products are not products of one attribute or person. It always saddens me when there’s a heated debate about something quite irrelevant to the campaign itself because all the negative press migth discourage potential backers. Luckily this thread was at least continued elsewhere.

Well what we do here in this forum, is that we discuss different games, or things related to games (and perhaps sometimes things that aren’t). With the birth of crowdfunding it has also become very relevant to discuss the different kickstarter campaigns. Both to make others aware of these projects, but also to discuss which projects are worth supporting and which aren’t.

Negative input about a project is just as valuable for this discussion as positive is. If only people who have something positive to say, post in these threads, then it would just turn into a promotion for the project, and the threads would become totally irrelevant.

Of course not all comments are equally relevant, like the breast size debate, and there is a difference between explaining why you don’t think a project is worth supporting, and trying to sabotage a project.

Edit: I know it can be hard if you are personally very enthusiastic about a project, especially if that project is struggling to meet its goals, and then someone posts something negative about it. But i would rather have that, then have the threads turn into pure promotion.

I agree (never meant to say negative comments aren’t allowed) and to some extent it is a matter of interpretation but honestly some people just go on around saying how something or someone sucks and hinting that pretty much anyone that likes or supports them are idiots. This forum has never been the worst place for this but sometimes I feel it gets too negative around here too. But criticism is hard - always. It’s difficult to express critical opinions so that no one would feel attacked, especially in written form where your body language isn’t telling everyone that you are not shaking and shouting when expressing your negative comments.

     

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But why is it relevant? Armikrog is not a political game.

Every person is a political person, because we all have our own opinions. How many projects do we all back or persued without knowing the politicals views of the people involved? Should we always know them despite the project itself having nothing to do with it?
Should things only be supported between people thinking the same?

Without a bit of tolerance nothing could be achieved. You are not supporting personal belifs, but awesomeness in the form of a joy-bringing project.


 

 

     
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.
.

I have no opinion,’ Cuthbert said brightly. ‘No, none at all. Opinion is politics, and politics is an evil which has caused many a young fellow to be hung while he’s still young and pretty.’”


Mini Frown

     
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sordy-wordy - 31 May 2013 01:55 PM

Without a bit of tolerance nothing could be achieved. You are not supporting personal belifs, but awesomeness in the form of a joy-bringing project.

But what about when the creator of said game has shown an incredible amount of intolerance to a whole section of society? An intolerance that “could” affect lives?

I’m throwing this in as a viewpoint for discussion, if anybody thinks it’s worth discussing of course, and as a vehicle for, maybe, looking at one’s own morals and standards with regard to the wider world.

     

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sordy-wordy - 31 May 2013 01:55 PM

But why is it relevant? Armikrog is not a political game…..

Why some of us believe it is relevant, has already been answered in many of the previously posts, both in this and the other thread. Here is one of my own answers to that question:

Iznogood - 30 May 2013 12:34 PM

The thing is that when you back a kickstarter, then you are not just buying a product or supporting a specific project, you are also supporting and helping the people behind the project. This means that what kind of people we are supporting also becomes a relevant issue, and if the people are political active, then it also means there is a political aspect to it.

I am not talking about that I wont support artists unless their political views etc. are exactly the same as mine, it is perfectly possible to respect someone even if their views are the direct opposite of your own…..

.... But things aren’t created in a vacuum like that, even if it doesn’t turn into some kind of political manifest, then the views of the artist still manages to find its way into the art, and i wouldn’t have it any other way. Art that is chemically cleaned of any kind of opinion or world view, is in my opinion just dull and uninteresting.

     

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^^Thats too much presumption, if you say that politics will find its way in product, no its not,its not only his project alone, its not like this money will feed him to survive
his life for more antigay movements, he will keep doing political stuff even
without the money IMO.

But not funding him on presumption is gonna hurt great adventure game,
that looks great and fans/genre along with it, than his few political slur that wont
gonna do any good.

You dont know Tim’s stance or JJ stance, because they wont say it, but maybe some of your
best developers are even more anti than you think,perhaps you have already funded them, its just that Doug is paying his price for being vocal.

     
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Jabod - 31 May 2013 02:07 PM
sordy-wordy - 31 May 2013 01:55 PM

Without a bit of tolerance nothing could be achieved. You are not supporting personal belifs, but awesomeness in the form of a joy-bringing project.

But what about when the creator of said game has shown an incredible amount of intolerance to a whole section of society? An intolerance that “could” affect lives?

 

That’s the point! We know better than him, so why pay him with the same coin? If you claim intolerance is bad, how being intolerant with someone will accomplish anything?

Iznogood - 30 May 2013 12:34 PM

The thing is that when you back a kickstarter, then you are not just buying a product or supporting a specific project, you are also supporting and helping the people behind the project. This means that what kind of people we are supporting also becomes a relevant issue, and if the people are political active, then it also means there is a political aspect to it.

.... But things aren’t created in a vacuum like that, even if it doesn’t turn into some kind of political manifest, then the views of the artist still manages to find its way into the art, and i wouldn’t have it any other way. Art that is chemically cleaned of any kind of opinion or world view, is in my opinion just dull and uninteresting.

This is too extreme for me. Like i put in my other questions, how many times in an ordinary day do you support other people without knowing or caring about their politicals views. When you buy your groceries do you know who that man voted for? Do you care?

I agree that sometimes the point of view of the artist finds it way to their work. That’s why my first question was, if people still think The Neverhood is a good game. Do you see any right-wing conservative stuff in there? I see a weird looking, blasphemous view of the genesis, there are many gods or semigods, strange creatures…even at the end, instead of going with a whole adam and eve ending, a bunch of genderless beings are created.It’s a big gay party at the end. 
I think Tennapel might be 95% a conservative jerk but that other 5% is of absolute creativity with a very liberal point of view. We should try to encourage him into be more like that 5% instead of trying to put that 95% in there too.
   

 

 

 

     
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You dont know Tim’s stance or JJ stance, because they wont say it, but maybe some of your
best developers are even more anti than you think,perhaps you have already funded them, its just that Doug is paying his price for being vocal.

I don’t think most people actively dig into the personal lives of people who create art/books/games, etc that they enjoy so we mostly go about enjoying those things in blissful ignorance and not feel any personal emotions about the developer one way or another. However, when you stumble upon information about someone, usually unintentionally, I have found that one can’t unlearn that information. Whether or not that shapes any opinion about the product or the person creating the product is an individual choice that I don’t think anyone should be condemned or praised for.

     
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nomadsoul - 31 May 2013 03:50 PM

^^Thats too much presumption, if you say that politics will find its way in product…..

But that wasn’t what I said!
What i did say that the views of the person or persons will find its way into the art.
When i was trying to find out more about TenNapel i found this blog where he analyses Tolkiens work based on the fact that he was Catholic, so obviously Doug TenNapel himself disagrees with you!

sordy-wordy - 31 May 2013 04:37 PM
Iznogood - 30 May 2013 12:34 PM

The thing is that when you back a kickstarter, then you are not just buying a product or supporting a specific project, you are also supporting and helping the people behind the project. This means that what kind of people we are supporting also becomes a relevant issue, and if the people are political active, then it also means there is a political aspect to it…..

This is too extreme for me. Like i put in my other questions, how many times in an ordinary day do you support other people without knowing or caring about their politicals views. When you buy your groceries do you know who that man voted for? Do you care?
...

What the h… is extreme about that?
I am simply stating a fact. You can like or dislike it, but the simple truth is that there is now also a political aspect to the Armikrog kickstarter.

Now lets just imagine for a moment that President Obama decided he wanted to be a game developer instead of president, and started a kikstarter for some game, (yes i know it is not very likely to happen, it is a hypothetical situation) would you then also claim that there is no political aspect about that project?

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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