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Is innovation the death of the genre?

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Thanks Luhr for posting your ideas about why you think The Norwood Suite & Eastshade offer innovation.

Luhr28 - 03 July 2019 09:39 AM

If you look at your replies, you haven’t responded to every argument equally. A number of people have posted evidence that your classic games are not under threat. Why innovation spurs growth, not death. The reason you won’t listen is, I suspect, because it was never why you were upset. Thus reason becomes irrelevant and secondary to finding witnesses to your grievances.

Wow, are you always so personal when challenged?
I didn’t feel the need to respond to every argument (actually opinion) equally - you’re the only poster that’s jumping up & down here (aside from me of course!).

The fact that the word ‘classic’ is now used does denote that the core values that define the genre are under threat from various ‘innovative’ offerings posing as Adventure Games that although are enjoyed by some Adventure Game players belong in sub-categories perhaps as mentioned by giom in his post.

My frustration comes from looking through long lists of new games & having to look up the details, sometimes fruitlessly, to get an idea of the content before buying.
At one time I never used to bother with reviews but now it’s essential aside from games well promoted in the forum threads. 

     
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Advie - 02 July 2019 04:11 PM

i couldn’t read all the previous post, dialogues, and quotes, but seriously on the thread title subject all i can say you know about how to destroy and country by diving it?!, its absolutely what is going on with genre and all those innovations from Interactive adventure, side scrolling, escape the room, puzzles games ..and what happened to the classic formula? it becomes rare!, how many adventures like Iron Curtains and Truberbrook come every month?

but anyways they all must suit different consoles and interfaces than the old PC (gamers), that i understand, but i cant stop to complain.

I wonder if the answer is to better categorise the games?

but then how would you (i.e) categorize the best games that came outta (the best year) 1997? more than 1st and 3rd person

-1997-
Riven
Curse of Monkey Island
Blade Runner
Zork: Grand Inquisitor
Broken Sword II: The Smoking Mirror
The Last Express
Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon
The Space Bar
The Journeyman Project: Pegasus Prime
Obsidian
Jack Orlando
Shivers II: Harvest of Souls
Duckman: The Graphic Adventures of a Private Dick
Dark Earth
Tony Tough and the Night of Roasted Moths
The Feeble Files

     
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Thanks chrissie Smile  Heart

     
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Advie - 03 July 2019 08:11 PM
Advie - 02 July 2019 04:11 PM

.... i can say you know about how to destroy and country by diving it?!, its absolutely what is going on with genre and all those innovations from Interactive adventure, side scrolling, escape the room, puzzles games ..and what happened to the classic formula? it becomes rare!.......

I wonder if the answer is to better categorise the games?

but then how would you (i.e) categorize the best games that came outta (the best year) 1997? more than 1st and 3rd person

-1997-
Riven
Curse of Monkey Island
Blade Runner
Zork: Grand Inquisitor
Broken Sword II: The Smoking Mirror
The Last Express
Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon
The Space Bar
The Journeyman Project: Pegasus Prime
Obsidian
Jack Orlando
Shivers II: Harvest of Souls
Duckman: The Graphic Adventures of a Private Dick
Dark Earth
Tony Tough and the Night of Roasted Moths
The Feeble Files

I was more thinking of categorising games into sub-genres.
For me there really is no need to categorise most of those games as to me they represent the core of the adventure game genre. (Does Dark Earth belong as it’s an action game?)

The one exception I can see (I haven’t played all of the games though) is Riven which perhaps belongs in a sub-category of puzzle-focused exploration game along with e.g. The Witness.
You’ve already in your post mentioned interactive adventure, escape the room etc. (Wouldn’t side-scrolling fit into presentation though along with platform?)

Some of the descriptions I’ve seen include ‘walking sim’ & ‘unconventional’. I would add ‘experiential’ to describe games that lack substantial story & puzzles. 
Games that fall into sub-genres may be included in more than one. 

 

 

 

     
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chrissie - 04 July 2019 06:39 AM

Some of the descriptions I’ve seen include ‘walking sim’ & ‘unconventional’. I would add ‘experiential’ to describe games that lack substantial story & puzzles. 
Games that fall into sub-genres may be included in more than one.

Quoting an old post of mine:
Adventure games have three pillars: exploration, story and puzzles. Take away story and you get Myst-for-plumbers aka Rhem and puzzle games like Unmechanical. Take away puzzles and you get The Dark Eye and Gone Home. (Interestingly the more experimental or non-traditional Stanley Parable, The Path, and Dear Esther are generally not considered real adventures.) Take away exploration and you get Ceremony of Innocence and In Memoriam. And when two of the three pillars are knocked out from under the adventure game, it becomes fringe.

But what sort of experiential game does not have puzzles and no story to speak of? Examples?

     

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Karlok - 04 July 2019 11:46 AM

But what sort of experiential game does not have puzzles and no story to speak of? Examples?

flower (ps3) and the likes? You just cruise around being “the wind”. You can’t really fail, there’s no real challenges, but there’s no plot or anything either (unless you consider “travel towards that city there” a plot).
Incidentally, I personally felt it was overpriced rubbish, but then I’m just not the “artsy” type.


Either way I don’t really get the topic but I never mind innovation within a genre. Mostly stuff I personally wouldn’t think of; but I always like exploring new ideas and experience new narrative designs and such.

 

     
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Chrissie - YES! Innovation is totally to blame. Since graphics became fashionable games have been dumbed down and text adventures are played by virtually no one anymore. Despite them being the most intelligent form of game yet created. As far as I’m concerned the genre died the moment Ken and Roberta Williams decided to ruin the genre by putting graphics in Mystery House, believing that we could not use our imaginations to picture what we were reading. It’s a shame, but it is what it is and the trend of everything else in the world.

     
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chrissie - 04 July 2019 06:39 AM

I was more thinking of categorising games into sub-genres.
For me there really is no need to categorise most of those games as to me they represent the core of the adventure game genre. (Does Dark Earth belong as it’s an action game?)

The one exception I can see (I haven’t played all of the games though) is Riven which perhaps belongs in a sub-category of puzzle-focused exploration game along with e.g. The Witness.
You’ve already in your post mentioned interactive adventure, escape the room etc. (Wouldn’t side-scrolling fit into presentation though along with platform?)

Some of the descriptions I’ve seen include ‘walking sim’ & ‘unconventional’. I would add ‘experiential’ to describe games that lack substantial story & puzzles. 
Games that fall into sub-genres may be included in more than one.

Dark Earth is an adventure/action game, but i ve seen only videos.

Riven is nothing like The Witness, the 1st is solitary exploration adventure, the latter is a Puzzle game.

Side-Scrolling yeah, is only a way of presentation but it surely changes everything traditional about one adventure, whether the devs intended to or not.

     
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Pyoro-2 - 04 July 2019 12:46 PM
Karlok - 04 July 2019 11:46 AM

But what sort of experiential game does not have puzzles and no story to speak of? Examples?

flower (ps3) and the likes? You just cruise around being “the wind”. You can’t really fail, there’s no real challenges, but there’s no plot or anything either (unless you consider “travel towards that city there” a plot).
Incidentally, I personally felt it was overpriced rubbish, but then I’m just not the “artsy” type.

I’ve heard of Flower, never played it because it was console only. It’s now available for PC too, I might try it. Dear Esther has no real story to speak of either, it’s just streams of words, recurring themes and names, so you can pick out the sentences that appeal to you and make up a story. Shifty Eyed But I liked Dear Esther a lot. Impressive atmosphere, very beautiful.

Either way I don’t really get the topic but I never mind innovation within a genre. Mostly stuff I personally wouldn’t think of; but I always like exploring new ideas and experience new narrative designs and such.

I don’t mind innovation either, on the contrary. I’m getting fed up with the same old formula of classic 3rd-person adventures: collecting everything that’s not nailed down, running lots of errands, distracting people, listening to endless dialogues. The same goes for Mystian first-person ones, although I loved Obduction and Xing. I want more unique games, like Obra Dinn, Stories Untold, Edith Finch, Firewatch, The Witness, Gorogoa, Orwell, Pony Island, Sexy Brutale, Her Story. 

Advie - 05 July 2019 05:36 AM

Riven is nothing like The Witness, the 1st is solitary exploration adventure, the latter is a Puzzle game.

Huh?? Riven and The Witness both have puzzles and solitary exploration. If you’d played The Witness you’d know it’s much more than just a “puzzle game”.

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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let me understand this, do you consider games that approach puzzles thru solitary exploration (understanding what is the puzzle, 1st of all) are the same as games with the kinda approaches that struck in the face with the puzzles, right away since the very start are from the same genre/sub-genre? ,do also think that Witness is different from the Portal?
they could be from the same family, i can’t deny this (as a whole genre)

     
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They’re different types of puzzles, that’s all. And I don’t know about Portal, haven’t played it.

     

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Advie - 05 July 2019 09:59 AM

let me understand this, do you consider games that approach puzzles thru solitary exploration (understanding what is the puzzle, 1st of all) are the same as games with the kinda approaches that struck in the face with the puzzles, right away since the very start are from the same genre/sub-genre? ,do also think that Witness is different from the Portal?
they could be from the same family, i can’t deny this (as a whole genre)

The Witness has a very big exploration part, much more so than Portal. There is exploration in Portal though.
Is there a reason you haven’t played it, Karlok ? I think it’s up there with Witness Talos and Obra Dinn.

     
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Ninth - 06 July 2019 07:22 AM

The Witness has a very big exploration part, much more so than Portal. There is exploration in Portal though.
Is there a reason you haven’t played it, Karlok ? I think it’s up there with Witness Talos and Obra Dinn.

In general, I don’t play platformers, shooters, and games with lots of (timed) action.

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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Lots of interesting posts! Thumbs Up

Grue22 - 04 July 2019 09:50 PM

Chrissie - YES! Innovation is totally to blame. Since graphics became fashionable games have been dumbed down and text adventures are played by virtually no one anymore. Despite them being the most intelligent form of game yet created. As far as I’m concerned the genre died the moment Ken and Roberta Williams decided to ruin the genre by putting graphics in Mystery House, believing that we could not use our imaginations to picture what we were reading. It’s a shame, but it is what it is and the trend of everything else in the world.

I didn’t know about text adventures when I 1st started gaming but have tried a couple since. Would you compare the dumbing down due to the introduction of graphics in a game to the difference between reading a book & a film of the same story? - In my mind a film rarely captures everything a book has to offer so am I relating to what you’re saying?
But I have to confess though that an appeal of games for me is the potential to jump into the visual portrayal of a world created by someone else rather than have to imagine it for myself, otherwise perhaps I’d read a book.

Advie - 05 July 2019 05:36 AM

Side-Scrolling yeah, is only a way of presentation but it surely changes everything traditional about one adventure, whether the devs intended to or not.

How? I’ve played a few games that use a side-scrolling interface: Downfall, The Cat lady & Lorelai. Rainswept, Sally Face & the current answer to ‘Adventure game scene…..uh.game (continued)’ to name but a few.

Pyoro-2 - 04 July 2019 12:46 PM


.....Either way I don’t really get the topic but I never mind innovation within a genre. Mostly stuff I personally wouldn’t think of; but I always like exploring new ideas and experience new narrative designs and such.

Karlok - 05 July 2019 07:21 AM


I don’t mind innovation either, on the contrary. I’m getting fed up with the same old formula of classic 3rd-person adventures: collecting everything that’s not nailed down, running lots of errands, distracting people, listening to endless dialogues. The same goes for Mystian first-person ones, although I loved Obduction and Xing. I want more unique games, like Obra Dinn, Stories Untold, Edith Finch, Firewatch, The Witness, Gorogoa, Orwell, Pony Island, Sexy Brutale, Her Story.

I have no argument against new ideas but within the framework of ‘classic’ adventure I do think there is still a lot of scope for talented developers to make interesting & imaginative games. 

So, how are Stories Untold, Edith Finch, The Witness, Orwell, Pony Island, Sexy Brutale & Her Story unique? ..........& how would you categorise them?

Karlok - 04 July 2019 11:46 AM

But what sort of experiential game does not have puzzles and no story to speak of? Examples?

Pyoro-2 - 04 July 2019 12:46 PM


flower (ps3) and the likes? You just cruise around being “the wind”. You can’t really fail, there’s no real challenges, but there’s no plot or anything either (unless you consider “travel towards that city there” a plot).
Incidentally, I personally felt it was overpriced rubbish, but then I’m just not the “artsy” type.

Flower I’ve never heard of let alone played but perfect for the sub-category of experiential. The only game I could put in that category that I’ve actually played (although not to conclusion) is The Path.
Other games that may be helpful for players to have this ‘sub-category’ for may include as just a few examples (from descriptions - correct me if I’m wrong) Abzu, Dear Esther, Montague’s Mount & possibly Eastshade?

I always liked that term ‘fringe’ btw! What other games would qualify? 
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chrissie - 07 July 2019 09:36 AM

Lots of interesting posts! Thumbs Up

Grue22 - 04 July 2019 09:50 PM

Chrissie - YES! Innovation is totally to blame. Since graphics became fashionable games have been dumbed down and text adventures are played by virtually no one anymore. Despite them being the most intelligent form of game yet created. As far as I’m concerned the genre died the moment Ken and Roberta Williams decided to ruin the genre by putting graphics in Mystery House, believing that we could not use our imaginations to picture what we were reading. It’s a shame, but it is what it is and the trend of everything else in the world.

I didn’t know about text adventures when I 1st started gaming but have tried a couple since. Would you compare the dumbing down due to the introduction of graphics in a game to the difference between reading a book & a film of the same story? - In my mind a film rarely captures everything a book has to offer so am I relating to what you’re saying?
But I have to confess though that an appeal of games for me is the potential to jump into the visual portrayal of a world created by someone else rather than have to imagine it for myself, otherwise perhaps I’d read a book.
 
  Smile

Yes, that is a good comparison. It is strange that we view graphical games as an evolution of text games, while books continue to enjoy success alongside films. We do not see movies as an evolution of books, they are a separate medium. I am not a visual person so I do not view images as somehow more ‘advanced’ than the word, and in fact I find words can evoke so much more than looking upon a few colored pixels.

     

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