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Why can’t RPGs and other genres be more like AGs???

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zane - 28 April 2015 07:27 AM

have you played vampire bloodlines? To me, it is the best rpg in a modern setting and presently the best example of a game that blends adventure and roleplaying. (fan fix patches are a must).

It does fall into that old trap though, the last 20% or so of the game the devs started running out of money.. coming up against deadlines and the last portion is a combat dungeon crawl. But before then i think it accomplishes overcoming the monotony of most rpgs. It is an amazing game.

Great recomendation. One of the best and different RPG out there.

nomadsoul - 28 April 2015 03:33 PM

Why can’t RPGs and other genres be more like AGs???

Because they sell better and get better ratings too, by and large.

They must be doing something right and detest change.

On other hand other action/adventure genres are getting more like RPGs, by adding skillpoints,Xp, loots and skilltrees in open world setup.

Here is list of diversity(last and current gen),

DeusEx, Cyberpunk = Well cyberpunk
Masseffect ,KOTOR series = Space sicifi
Fallout 3/4, Wasteland2 = Post apocalyptic
DragonAge, Elderscrolls,Witcher, Souls = Medieval Fantasy
Turnbased = Recent KS indies.
AphaProtocol= Espionage, Political
Folklore, Plansescape/Tides = Existential/Philosophical
Bloodborne = Horror
Then there are plenty of JRPGs like LostOdyssey, Resonance of Fate, Persona,Ninokuni, Zelda, FF series etc which have unique settings.

Persona 3 and 4 for an JRPG with a complete different and original setting. But I think the problem with console and JRPGs is that they tend to be more linear and have a big focus on combat. ALthough combat has usually a lot of strategy.

     
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tomimt - 28 April 2015 11:07 AM

When you go into more sophisticated areas like dialogue and plot lines, it all starts going more difficult, as well as more expensive as you might not only need a load of good writers but potentialy, but not necessarily, actors as well. Also combat is easier to use as a world filler than actual plot elements. Think of Skyrim for an example, which is pretty slim on actual plot all things considered. It’s a well built world, but the story itself is something you can pretty much dumb after you leave the first town.

Then why don’t they settle for a shorter game? Why make a 30-hour game and stick in 60 hours of combat? It quickly becomes obvious padding…

Iznogood - 28 April 2015 03:14 PM

I however don’t agree that all combat should be optional, because it is an important part of RPG’s, basically combat is to an RPG what puzzles are to an AG.

Then RPGs lost their meaning. They’re ROLE PLAYING games, not including a more peaceful approach takes away all non-aggressive roles one can play…

Oscar - 28 April 2015 08:53 AM

I think you do yourself a disservice always playing on Easy mode. Sometimes combat is like a puzzle, where the harder it is the more satisfaction you can get out of it.

Well, I always start on ‘normal’ and see how it goes. Some games, I’ll even up to ‘hard’ if I like the combat (KotOR for instance). Most of the times, it takes only a few hours in-game before I get fed up with it and switch to easy. And a few hours more before I turn to a save game editor to boost my character. Meh
Dragon Age: Origins was different. Even ‘easy’ was pretty hard, so doing that was almost a necessity… Tongue

Kurufinwe - 28 April 2015 07:13 AM

3) Have you tried Pillars of Eternity? It has no XP for combat, no respawn, and non-violent solutions to many quests. However, it does have a lot of enemies wherever you go

The Witcher gave me some fantasy fatigue at the moment, so Pillars is out for a while. I’m definitely interested, though.

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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TimovieMan - 28 April 2015 05:09 PM

Then why don’t they settle for a shorter game? Why make a 30-hour game and stick in 60 hours of combat? It quickly becomes obvious padding…

Very often I’ve wondered the same thing. In many RPG’s shorter duration and less combat would actually make a better game, but the way I see it, devs and some RPG fans seem to think that RPG’s should all be +30 hour epochs and anything less than that is an insult. Long play time doesn’t make a good game though.

     
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tomimt - 28 April 2015 05:31 PM
TimovieMan - 28 April 2015 05:09 PM

Then why don’t they settle for a shorter game? Why make a 30-hour game and stick in 60 hours of combat? It quickly becomes obvious padding…

Very often I’ve wondered the same thing. In many RPG’s shorter duration and less combat would actually make a better game, but the way I see it, devs and some RPG fans seem to think that RPG’s should all be +30 hour epochs and anything less than that is an insult. Long play time doesn’t make a good game though.

There are tons of smaller good RPGs (again Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall again for example). Not all RPGs need to be big or have lots of combat. Like not all adventure games need lots of puzzles or dialogues and there are tons of options now in both genres.

     

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Speaking of fun short but content dense rpgs… i had fun with the southpark rpg Smile
The humor isnt for everyone, but i thought the game was very nicely designed and a very fun 20ish hour romp.

     
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Tim - We talked about this very topic on the Casual Games thread, except in the opposite direction. I.e. recalling the day when AG wanted to add RPG elements to their games because they (AGs) were losing market share. Turned out badly.

I think it would be best if we allowed RPGs to play themselves out. When they reach a point where people aren’t buying them, for whatever reason, they will dial back.

All of this is cyclical.

The other Tim

     

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My favorite JRPGs have a story mode difficulty where you can spend more time on the story and less on combat.

My fave JRPG - Persona 4 Golden on the PSVITA does this very well.

I try to buy JRPGs like this.

For turn based - I just got for the PSVITA “tokyo twilight ghost hunters” - a combination Visual Novel and Turn based RPG I really enjoy.

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I enjoy playing adventure games on my Alienware M17 r4 and my Nintendo Switch OLED.

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rtrooney - 28 April 2015 08:38 PM

Tim - We talked about this very topic on the Casual Games thread, except in the opposite direction. I.e. recalling the day when AG wanted to add RPG elements to their games because they (AGs) were losing market share. Turned out badly.

Actually, what sparked this thread was the observation that nearly ALL game genres started incorporating AG elements into their games since the mid-90s (whether that were cutscenes, puzzles, etc.), but that they all stopped doing that when the next logical step would’ve been to decrease the need for combat. It’s like they all thought “Less combat? Preposterous!”.

I just wonder why that is, especially since most of those games became very story-heavy as well…


It goes without saying that I don’t want them to *become* AGs, just that they should have the option to allow the player’s experience to be one closer to it…

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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The thing is though, RPGs generally can’t do puzzles right. Look at Skyrim, where ‘puzzles’ consist of either a lockpick minigame or searching for a code on a cave wall, and you do both hundreds of times through the game.

I think RPG creators see alternatives to combat as ‘taking the easy way out’, because they can’t think of puzzles that would be challenging. And the way most RPGs do it, a dialogue option you can choose to bypass combat if you have high enough skill points IS the easy way out.

Of course there are several that do puzzles well. Legend of Grimrock implements Myst-style puzzles and riddles, but not as alternatives to combat.

     
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Without combat it’s very difficult to feel like you’re making meaningful progress with your character, which is an essential part of the genre, and is one of the things that separates RPGs and AGs.

One of my all-time favourite games is Fallout 3. Would I say the combat is excellent? Not really, but it is satisfying as you level up, find different weapons, unlock perks etc. Most importantly, there’s a great balance between combat, exploration and interacting with NPCs. I love that I can spend an hour exploring a new place, talking to people, then when I feel like it, find some baddies and explode their heads.

Fallout 3 & New Vegas worked better for me than Skyrim for whatever reason. Maybe it was the stories and writing, I’m not sure.

     
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Oscar - 29 April 2015 07:45 AM

I think RPG creators see alternatives to combat as ‘taking the easy way out’, because they can’t think of puzzles that would be challenging. And the way most RPGs do it, a dialogue option you can choose to bypass combat if you have high enough skill points IS the easy way out.

It’s a good point and not cared for in a lot of games. I think the Fallout games do this well to some extension. If you have the necessary skill points you gain access to Repair /Hack that help the combat a lot (or even avoid it). Each hacking is a mini-game and with depending on the amount intelligence or skill points it becomes easier to the player. Same thing about the dialogue options and Persuasion. I think that is an elegant solution.

     
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TimovieMan - 28 April 2015 05:09 PM
Iznogood - 28 April 2015 03:14 PM

I however don’t agree that all combat should be optional, because it is an important part of RPG’s, basically combat is to an RPG what puzzles are to an AG.

Then RPGs lost their meaning. They’re ROLE PLAYING games, not including a more peaceful approach takes away all non-aggressive roles one can play…

Not at all, even if not all combat is optional, then there is still plenty of room for a lot of role playing!

Sure if the objective is that we have to steal some precious artefact, then give us the option between kicking in the door and killing everybody in our path, sneaking past the guards or climbing a wine to get in through a window. But if the objective is that we have to defeat some dangerous foe with a small army, then a non-combat approach really doesn’t make much sense. I mean what are we going to do, push a boulder down on his head, take his clothes and disguise ourself as him, and then tell his henchmen that we have changed our mind and don’t want to destroy the world anymore, and they should all go home and live in peace for the rest of their lives? That is cartoon logic or perhaps even AG logic.

orient - 29 April 2015 09:11 AM

Without combat it’s very difficult to feel like you’re making meaningful progress with your character, which is an essential part of the genre, and is one of the things that separates RPGs and AGs.

I agree, and it is one of the reasons why I think combat is just as important to RPG’s as puzzles are to AG’s.

TimovieMan - 29 April 2015 06:59 AM

Actually, what sparked this thread was the observation that nearly ALL game genres started incorporating AG elements into their games since the mid-90s (whether that were cutscenes, puzzles, etc.), but that they all stopped doing that when the next logical step would’ve been to decrease the need for combat. It’s like they all thought “Less combat? Preposterous!”.

I think that the other genres have already borrowed all that they can from adventure games, some games and genres have borrowed more and done it better than others, but I think the limit has more or less been reached.

In fact I think that it is about time that adventure games returned the favour and started to steal elements from other genres, like the freedom and open world approach from RPG’s.

     

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Iznogood - 29 April 2015 12:06 PM

In fact I think that it is about time that adventure games returned the favour and started to steal elements from other genres, like the freedom and open world approach from RPG’s.

Yeah, that’s what was on my mind. The question that bugs me is why can’t adventures be more like RPGs. As said there are some RPGs that implement puzzles quite well and are combat-light. Fallout has been mentioned before (I hate the third part though, nowhere near adventure) I used to play with this female character that’s not really strong and cannot uphold a battle by herself easily. But I put many points on intelligence, charisma, talking skills, stealing and sneaking skills, agility and perception, science skills. I ended up with a sneaky, nice looking, smooth talker and was able to do many quests with my non-fighting abilities. Sometimes lying, sometimes seducing, sometimes stealing or running away. The game gave all these options (hidden for the player of course) I remember that there was even a way of getting around the final boss in Fallout 2. And some of the optional quests (usually not shown as objectives so if you weren’t careful enough you might miss that you’re getting a clue for a optional quest at all) had really nice puzzles good enough for an adventure game.

Combat is fun in RPGs when it’s done right. Each fight was indeed a puzzle with the nearly perfect turn-based S.P.E.C.I.A.L. combat system. Cannot say the same about Arcanum, another game that fits into rpg-adventure gap. I didn’t finish it though, put off by the lousy combat system.

So yeah, what I’m really looking forward to is a little diverse adventure game set in a more open world, more interaction with characters (not only talking) and a surrounding that coresponds adequately to your actions and choices. Wouldn’t mind a simple and not frequently appearing combat option (if the story requires intense moments).

     

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There ARE RPGs that do so.

Fallout 1 and Fallout 2.

And, sadly, pretty much no other game ever made.

     
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Great thread! The main reason I prefer adventure games over RPGs is this: the scenarios you find yourself in as a player are unique for every situation. There is no cut-and-paste going on in adventure games. You don’t find “locked door 26” where you can use you stealth skill to open. Every situation is different and new. I don’t think that is possible with RPG where they want to allow you to choose how to approach each situation.

     

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