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did we take the 2000s decade for granted?

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i think (or guess) when its comes to innovation devs need to ask the right questions and usually its not ‘how’ what makes what’s so called feature an innovation, but ‘why’ (are we doing this?); so for example if the feature objective implemented with/thru ‘how’ then its only going to be narrow and only some kinda feature, more or less added to the gameplay (like what mentioned already from moving boxes to remember inventory items) where i am guessing more likely the question that was asked; ‘how are we going to implement somehow different puzzles than the inventory puzzles this time, rather than how is was at BS1 and 2’ or ‘how are we going to reveal inventory items without having to oblige the protagonist to do stupid (unrealistic) stuff like collecting a mob or piece machinery into his/her pockets’

on the other hand the devs (like many indie’s) whom always suffering with the voice acting budget and process; bc until designing, drawing or animate the game, devs are in control within their range of their creativity and tools, but apart from this or when it come to spending a big sum of money over studios rent, sound eng. and professional voice actors, they need come up with an innovation that will let them surpass this hurdle to even represent sumthing beautiful and more than just another AG with subtitles only without voice acting. and here i guess the question that was ‘why cant we do a game without voice acting that doesn’t look like its missing sumthin’.. .

Add: i am not sure if this post is easy to understand, but there is a saying i am not really sure how its translated to English, but anyways it goes like “the need is the mother of innovation”

     
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tomimt - 13 July 2020 08:31 AM

There’s no notion in jumping in a new form of presentation after others have already done it. Tomb Raider innovated by presenting a new form of 3rd person action-adventure game with puzzles. It created a formula others started to follow because of how well it made things work.

People have done the same thing before Elvis Presley, but few people remember Carl Perkins. British invasion didn’t start with The Beatles. If we’re to track down the very first game that did something we would most probably reach a game no one heard about. Fade to Black came before Tomb Raider, but yeah, who cares? Back to Gobliiins 4 - it wasn’t a groundbreaking game but it DID something innovative - switched the series to 3D. If you think Super Mario 64 wasn’t innovative because it “only” switched the same old concept to 3D, then I have no arguments any more.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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diego - 13 July 2020 02:06 PM

If you think Super Mario 64 wasn’t innovative because it “only” switched the same old concept to 3D, then I have no arguments any more.

But Super Mario 3D did much more than a mere 3D makeover. It proved to many that you could do a 3D platformer. But had it only done exactly same game as the previous 2D Marios before it and had there been a solid 3D platformer made before Super Mario 3D, then it would not have been that innovative at all. A mere change between forms of presentations isn’t really an innovation. I know we can argue about this till we both are blue in the face, but there isn’t anything you can say about it that would convince me otherwise.

Now you can make innovations through a form you present the game in. Like allowing people to use the 3D space in solving the puzzles. But if the game you do would be the same be it done in 2D or 3D, then there’s nothing innovative in how you present the game. It’s a mere switch in technology. And there isn’t anything innovative in switching tech as such.

And what comes to something coming out first, the history of computers and computer games if filled with people doing things before something became popular. Some people were far ahead of their time. Sometimes innovations are simple as finding something someone has done before and utilizing it for the better in the current time. There is a reason why people remember Doom over Catacomb Abyss. And sometimes, innovative things come out just the right time. That happened twice to Roberta Williams, 1st with Mystery House, the 2nd time with King’s Quest. 

 

     
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There is a lot of good stuff here. I appreciate the dialogue.

     

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tomimt - 10 July 2020 12:21 PM

funny thing is, that Bob Gale was part of the development of Back to the Future, it’s not like Telltale worked behind his back with the game. And what comes to not having Michael J. Fox back as the voice of Marty, maybe his Parkinson’s was bad at the time. He has a couple of years gap between projects during the time the game came out and was in development. It’s not like he was against the game, he does have a small role in the last episode after all.

Didn’t know about Fox’s cameo, I finished only 2 or 3 episodes and couldn’t force myself to continue playing. Bob Gale is a great writer, but maybe not a very good producer. I think he also produced the animated series which I didn’t like even as a kid. His Interstate 60, on the other hand, was pretty good and could’ve been made into a fun episodic adventure (since it is also kinda episodic).

     

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Every year that passes since the Golden Age it seems that the quality, especially production values drop down a little bit.

What companies do we have now that put effort and money to make beautiful adventure games?

Daedalic, but it’s broke now, Pendulo - quality deteriorated tremendously after Runaway…


Wadjet Eye games look like something that would like to belong in 90s, but the quality is not there.
Where are now eye-gem games that look like Curse of Monkey Island, Larry 7, Toonstruck, Discworld 2 or early Broken Swords?
Gone forever it seems…

     
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VoodooDerina - 16 July 2020 12:32 AM

Where are now eye-gem games that look like Curse of Monkey Island, Larry 7, Toonstruck, Discworld 2 or early Broken Swords?
Gone forever it seems…

Out of 2020 releases, don’t The Hand of Glory and Brassheart count?

     
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Production values? People were gushing over Trüberbrook before it was actually released. There are plenty of other recent games I think look gorgeous. And more artistic than a children’s cartoon.

I just tried making a list of games in the last 5 years with high production value, but there are just too many. My advice would be to go to the Aggies category of Best Graphic Design and look at the nominees for each year.

Maybe you just have 90s nostalgia, because quality is definitely not declining.

     
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VoodooDerina - 16 July 2020 12:32 AM

Every year that passes since the Golden Age it seems that the quality, especially production values drop down a little bit.

What companies do we have now that put effort and money to make beautiful adventure games?

Daedalic, but it’s broke now, Pendulo - quality deteriorated tremendously after Runaway…


Wadjet Eye games look like something that would like to belong in 90s, but the quality is not there.
Where are now eye-gem games that look like Curse of Monkey Island, Larry 7, Toonstruck, Discworld 2 or early Broken Swords?
Gone forever it seems…

i hear you there.

     
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VoodooDerina - 16 July 2020 12:32 AM

Wadjet Eye games look like something that would like to belong in 90s, but the quality is not there.
Where are now eye-gem games that look like Curse of Monkey Island, Larry 7, Toonstruck, Discworld 2 or early Broken Swords?
Gone forever it seems…

There are some recent & upcoming games in that hand drawn aesthetic.

Gibbous: A Cthulhu Adventure

Luna - The Shadow Dust

The Night is Grey

Zniw Adventure

And there’s many other phenomenal looking games recently in a diverse range of styles:

Beautiful Desolation

Roki

Encodya

Papetura

There are many more examples too but I’ll limit myself to just a few of them. Point being I certainly wouldn’t say “eye gem” games are gone forever. There’s so many visually appealing adventures being produced imo.

 

     

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Of all the games listed above, for me only Gibbous has that quality art look.

Rest of them look more or less like movies that miss director of photography, technology is maybe there, but artists are not skilled/talented enough to use it to its full potential.

We can go even further back, look 1991 for example:

On one hand Conquests of the Longbow and Monkey Island 2

and on the other Martian Memorandum for example, same technology, two universes.

Now we have a lot more examples of the later unfortunately, I presume because most skilled and talented artists are not into adventure games as they want to get paid accordingly.

     

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I thought the pixel art in Wadjet Eye’s more recent games, like Technobabylon and Unavowed, was as good as any pixel art from the 1990’s.

https://adventuregamers.com/articles/view/28665
https://adventuregamers.com/articles/view/35682

     
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There’s no comparison in terms of graphic quality between 2000s (yes, 2000s, not 90s) and recent years - we can discuss the quality of games, and YES - there’re standouts in recent games that could be a worthy contender for some of the best graphics ever (Draugen, Easthade, What Remains of Edith Finch…), but in 2000s it was more of a rule, than an exception. The reason is simple as I can see - we still had a lot of larger companies doing business, instead of small companies and indie developers with tight budgets that are majority of adventure developers today. It’s not all bad, as developers today are looking to be original and overcome the budget restrictions, which are most visible in the graphic, and voice acting department. (Are we ever going to see voice acting that Toonstruck had, with 10+ Hollywood actors?) I’m still to see better 2D hand-painted game than Runaway 1 and 2 (with Whispered World only coming close):

Now, I took a random year - 2003, which as many already agreed, is some of the hardest time for adventure gamers. Still, let’s look at the graphics of those games - Black Mirror, brilliantly, sinister pre-rendered 2D backgrounds:


Broken Sword 3, a lot of charm and cartoon-like quality in 3D:


Schizm 2, one of the most imaginative and inspired graphics I’ve seen in a Myst-clone:


And then we had every game by Benoit Sokal which screenshots you can hang out on the wall of your house without a problem. I already spoke a lot about it in the other threads - “The graphics of today’s games suck monkey balls” and “Remakes Graphic Demakes”, so I’m not going to dwell on it forever. I hope the trend changes, though. Smile

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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That’s exactly what I’ve been talking about Diego.

When you look at those games, graphics and art simply scream “RICH!”

     
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So true. There is also this flash-like animation where everyone moves like a ball-jointed doll which feels kinda cheap and amateurish, even if the art is good. I don’t think it was ever trendy in the pre-2010s games - there was hand-drawn animation, rotoscopy, some bad 3D animation, but it never felt so… flat. Today it’s a norm. I mean,

GateKeeper - 16 July 2020 02:06 AM

Out of 2020 releases, don’t The Hand of Glory and Brassheart count?

     

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