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TimovieMan is in the well!

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That brings up the big argument about “should art or traditions be altered to reflect current morality”

The uk stopped the black and white minstrels shows, phased out golliwog dolls and associated jam logos etc.

There are plenty of examples from the N word being removed from classic novels like Huckleberry Finn and “and then there were none”.

The oomph loompahs from Charlie and the Chocolate factory were originally pygmies shipped from Africa in boxes.

Can we still call noddy’s best friend Big Ears or is that offensive?

I remember political correctness going a bit daft in the 80’s and 90’s when they started all the African American, firefighter ( no longer man or woman), not allowed to say Merry Christmas in schools, happy holidays instead.

When it started to get completely ridiculous to the point of reporting the banning of baa baa black sheep in schools in favour of a variety of other colours it went too far.

     

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Lucien21 - 12 November 2014 05:31 AM

There are plenty of examples from the N word being removed from classic novels like Huckleberry Finn and “and then there were none”.

The oomph loompahs from Charlie and the Chocolate factory were originally pygmies shipped from Africa in boxes.

Changing these alters the perspective of the time in which it was written and basically boils down to convincing present day generations that the past didn’t happen as it did.
I’m all for changing this in adaptations, just don’t mess with the original. The original works reflect the time in which they were written. When you alter things in them, you lose that historical reference.
I mean, would you republish all of Shakespeare’s work and use modern-day English instead of the archaic use of language and then try to get rid of all original versions? That’s just absurd…

Can we still call noddy’s best friend Big Ears or is that offensive?

Meh, kids call each other worse names in the playground each day.

When it started to get completely ridiculous to the point of reporting the banning of baa baa black sheep in schools in favour of a variety of other colours it went too far.

Which is exactly why they should stick with the original Zwarte Piet tradition. Changing it is taking political correctness WAY too far.
Also, changing it would destroy the illusion for an entire generation of kids who weren’t already “in the know” about Sinterklaas (who is basically our expy of Santa Claus - notice the similarity in name).
Destroying the illusion for an entire generation may very well end up destroying the tradition itself…

     

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I agree wholeheartedly with Timovieman and Lucien. The whole Zwarte Piet discussion has gone far too far. Especially since the kids don’t give a hoot about what color Zwarte Piet is. So I hope that after this Sinterklaas people of both factions will shut up and behave themselves.

     
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Yes, the whole PC thing is very daft, but that reflects a large group of people still. The worst part is that it isn’t even a joke, but bloody serious. If we’re not careful we’ll have the first public fight, streetwar or maybe even a murder on our hands…..all because of a children’s fairytale in which Children donot even realize the undertones that is causing all of this mayhem.

Somebody on tv was making the case that the myth/fairytale around Sinterklaas and Black Peter is anyway subject to change. 40 years ago they were much nastier than now, they would even threathen to abduct children from their parents if they behaved badly Cool . So their personality has already changed in just 40/50 years. I guess it’s just a matter of time until their color has aswel. Which I think is probably inevitable, it’s just sad, because it won’t be the same thing anymore.

     
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subbi - 12 November 2014 03:08 PM

Yes, the whole PC thing is very daft, but that reflects a large group of people still. The worst part is that it isn’t even a joke, but bloody serious. If we’re not careful we’ll have the first public fight, streetwar or maybe even a murder on our hands…..all because of a children’s fairytale in which Children donot even realize the undertones that is causing all of this mayhem.

I agree one hundred percent! It’s bloody serious when a discussion about symbolic meanings has escalated into death threats. Tonight I watched an interview with Sunny Bergman, who is fervently opposed to Zwarte Piet and made a documentary about the issue. She claims that the violence and death threats come from the people who want to preserve the tradition. Of course HER side is snow white. Really? Watch the part where she talks to people in Hyde Park, dressed as Zwarte Piet, and gets threatened. She also claims that the traditional arrival of Sinterklaas and his Piets in a boat is painful for black people because of the associations with slaves being transported in boats to the US. Man, man, man…

For Dutch viewers: http://dewerelddraaitdoor.vara.nl/media/324289
For English viewers: The Hyde Park section starts at 8:40

 

     

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I don’t understand why a white person gets so much time in DWDD while Zwarte Piet is allegedly hurting black people.
It’s good that Van Dis was there to put the whole thing into context a bit.

     
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Sinterklaas arrived in the Netherlands yesterday. The police arrested 90(!) people who found it necessary to ruin this great happening for many small children because of their opinions. How low can you sink?
Since Timovieman is still in the well: I saw on TV that the discussion has reached Belgium now too. What do you think: will you be able to nip this in the bud one way or another or will it escalate in the way we saw in NL yesterday?

     
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tsa - 16 November 2014 12:36 AM

Sinterklaas arrived in the Netherlands yesterday.

What a coincidence, he arrived in Belgium as well yesterday!
Let’s hope that no children were switching TV stations between the broadcasts… Tongue

tsa - 16 November 2014 12:36 AM

The police arrested 90(!) people who found it necessary to ruin this great happening for many small children because of their opinions. How low can you sink?

Some people just like to ruin other people’s fun. I’m fairly certain they don’t have any kids themselves…

I saw on TV that the discussion has reached Belgium now too. What do you think: will you be able to nip this in the bud one way or another or will it escalate in the way we saw in NL yesterday?

I hope we will be able to nip it in the bud. Last year we were just bemused by the discussion in the Netherlands, but this year it’s at our doorstep.
There’s a lot of opposition (and it was an actual issue during the arrival yesterday with Sinterklaas himself commenting on it), but apparently a vocal minority of 5 (!!!) people have started legal proceedings against Zwarte Piet here, so it’s likely we’ll at least have Roet Piet here next year… Shifty Eyed


Let’s hope that the kids who notice the changes are gullible enough to buy whatever reason gets given why Zwarte Piet is not necessarily Zwart anymore…

     

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We had something like 14 people who started legal proceedings this year. What annoyed me the most about the hooligans yesterday was that when they had the chance to have their say on national TV not one of them could come with even one argument that you could take even a little serious. It was a ridiculous show. And indeed, some of the 90 were ‘professional’ hooligans who you can find everywhere where riots can be expected.

OK, let’s drop this discussion now because the other forumites have gone away already… sorry about that.

     

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