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The ongoing gay marriage debate - have your say, mind your manners

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Joined 2013-03-14

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Slurs like “bigot” and “homophobe” against people who support the definition of marriage are designed to shut down the debate. This is using vilification, not reason, to intimidate and to silence. It is a cheap, shameful tactic, similar to playing the race card and shouting the poisonous attack “racist!” when you don’t get your way. The discussion is over at that point. If you can’t grant that people can disagree on this issue in good faith and without being prejudiced bigots whose views are so beyond the pale that they deserve no consideration, then you’re not worth conversing with. These are important discussions to have about issues that will affect everyone and will have a huge effect on the future, and so it’s a shame to see some people so carelessly fall back on intimidation tactics and shortchange the subject.

“Bigotry” is also being intolerant of opposing opinions.

I see people here unconvincingly try to justify applying the “bigot” slur to anyone who holds different opinions. These people are embarrassing themselves. They should know better.

Blackthorne: I was talking about the manipulation of the Google autofill suggested search terms to make “Doug TenNapel bigot” the first suggested phrase after his name.

Anyway, not sure what else can be said. There’s really nowhere to go in the discussion after being called a bigoted purveyor of hate.

As I said before, I have great respect for Doug TenNapel for having the courage to speak his mind and to respectfully engage those who disagreed with him. Surely he knew how some people would try to destroy his reputation over it. Or perhaps he expected more from the gaming community. I know I would have expected more from the people here. Sorry to see many here rationalizing the efforts to smear and vilify him.

     
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For those late to the party, this thead is a continuation of this thread;

————————

Quest 1, you’re not “debating” the issue, so there’s nothing to shut down on your side. You’re simply declaring (and repeating, usually with increasingly hostile bluster) your entrenched position and crying foul at anyone who opposes it.

If you want to actually debate the issue, then explain WHY gays should be excluded from your this fast-crumbling view of marriage. (Like Mister Ed did in the other thread.) Otherwise, you’re simply hiding behind a narrow-minded definition to justify your own prejudice against people that are different than you to deny them the same rights you freely enjoy.

And you can whine about it all you want, but “bigotry” has a definition too, and this is a textbook example of it. It’s not an insult when it’s true.

The “purveyor of hate” nonsense has got to stop. That’s something you completely made up as a strawman argument and have been fighting it ever since. No one here cares what you claim to have read elsewhere on the internet. HERE the discussion has been very rational and reasonable for the most part. You do everyone (mostly yourself and your position) a disservice by inventing falsehoods and then railing against them.

     

Editor-in-Chief, some obscure little site called Adventure Gamers

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No, I will argue what I want, and what I’m arguing is that the vilification and the attempt to destroy the reputation of TenNapel for his opinions is shameful. Reasonable people can disagree on this issue and should not be subjected to a smear campaign. You, the editor of this site, apparently want to excuse the smearing of this man for having a different opinion. That’s your right.

Answer me this: Do you believe anyone who agrees with TenNapel on this issue deserves to be vilified and their reputation destroyed by an organized effort? Do you support this?

     
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Can we just lock this thread before it goes any further?  I’m pretty sure Quest1 doesn’t know what a strawman argument is, as several people have brought up the fact that he is repeatedly using them, and he responds by, essentially, calling them names.

Quest1, can I just ask—how old are you?  The extreme energy and tactlessness in your writing would suggest someone 21 or under, but the ultra-conservative conspiracy theory talk would suggest a disgruntled Baby Boomer.  So which is it?  I’m genuinely curious.

     
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Thing is, you’re really not making an argument. You’re just drawing and re-drawing the same lines in the sand with no reasons whatsoever, and then ranting at those who dare to cross it. That’s not a discussion, not a debate.

Why should I answer your question when you won’t answer mine (or anyone else’s)? But in the interest of fairness, I will. In fact, I’ll do better than that.

Right off the bat, I disagree with your premise that even TenNapel is being vilified. Not HERE. (As I said, I don’t care what other idiots might have said elsewhere.) I think the label of bigotry is deserved, for reasons previously established and left unanswered. TenNapel proudly wears his beliefs on his sleeve, so the label is fair territory. “Homophobe” is a stupid, meaningless word that should never have entered modern lexicon, but I don’t think anyone on these forums has even used it. 

Do I believe in organized efforts to destroy him for his opinion? Of course not. I’ve already stated that I backed his game, and of course wrote the news item here on AG. But again, I don’t seen anyone here has attempted or even suggested doing any such thing. So why is this even a question?

EDIT: Lambonius, this thread may well end up being locked, or result in people being banned if they can’t argue respectfully. But I still have some faith in this forum to soldier through difficult territory, so I’ll let it go for now.  (And yes, in having faith in humanity in spite of all the odds, I’ve often been wrong before. Tongue)

     

Editor-in-Chief, some obscure little site called Adventure Gamers

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Here is the crux of the issue: if someone will not grant that reasonable people can differ in their opinion on this issue, and that their differing opinion is not necessarily based on hate or bigotry or prejudice, then there is no point in any further discussion. Otherwise, you are basically saying, “you are a bigot and your opinion is based on hate, now explain why you shouldn’t be seen as a bigot.” Sorry, I won’t participate in any such discussion.

You, the editor of this site, support labeling as a “bigot” Doug TenNapel and anyone who believes in the definition of marriage. I’m disappointed to hear that, but I thank you for your candor. You pretend to be unaware of efforts to smear him. Maybe you should Google his name.

It is also a shame that the subject of this thread, which I created, was renamed. My post was about the smearing of Doug TenNapel, not a general gay marriage debate. I would like the title changed back to how I had it and to something that accurately reflects the point of my post.

     
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I have now been threatened by Jackal with banning because of my “conduct.” I do not personally insult people on here. I try to stick to the issues. I notice Jackal didn’t rebuke Lambonius for his personal insults.

To Lambonius: I would have defended your right to offer opposing views without being branded a bigot. Thanks a lot.

     
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If you want to make this public, after asking me earlier that I do not, then I’ll point out that you’ve been warned to stop your incessant trolling and mean-spirited posts that began ever since you joined the forums, a reality that’s patently obvious to anyone but you. The fact that you’ve ramped it up in these last few threads was merely the catalyst.

This latest post is an example of why your act has just about worn out. None of us here cares an iota about your politics, so that’s neither here nor there.

if someone will not grant that reasonable people can differ in their opinion on this issue, and that their differing opinion is not necessarily based on hate or bigotry or prejudice, then there is no point in any further discussion.

You’ve been asked several times what it IS based on, and you have no answer. In the absence of ANY justification for your view, there has never been a discussion.

Otherwise, you are basically saying, “you are a bigot and your opinion is based on hate, now explain why you shouldn’t be seen as a bigot.”

Wow. Just… wow. Again with the utter fabrication of “hate”. Someone who denies people the rights they enjoy simply because they’re different is a bigot. One doesn’t need to “hate” them to suppress them.

And again with the Google thing? If you want to fight arguments out there on Google instead of the ones here at AG, you’re welcome to go elsewhere to find them.

I changed the title of your thread because it was completely and utterly worthless, inaccurate, and self-serving.

So, Quest1, do you have anything of value to actually contribute to the discussion of gay marriage? Like, say, an answer to the question you’ve repeatedly dodged all this time?

 

     

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Quest1

I backed Armikrog, which would be a very counterproductive move on my part if I had any intention to “smear” his campaign whatsoever. If anyone is destroying TenNapels reputation, it’s TenNapel himself.

     

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Jackal - 07 June 2013 12:13 AM

if someone will not grant that reasonable people can differ in their opinion on this issue, and that their differing opinion is not necessarily based on hate or bigotry or prejudice, then there is no point in any further discussion.

You’ve been asked several times what it IS based on, and you have no answer. In the absence of ANY justification for your view, there has never been a discussion.

 

The answer, in the absence of “hate,” “bigotry,” or “prejudice” must surely be ignorance.

     
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True. Hence the value of threads like this for people mature enough to actually debate it.

     

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I had prepared a reply to a post by Quest1 in the “support of an artist influenced by his beliefs/attitude” thread, but now it seems more valid here.

Quest1 -

I have more questions for discussion: if someone is bothered by an artist’s beliefs and attitudes, is it acceptable for them to try to damage the reputation and career of the artist? When is it acceptable to do such a thing? Is it ever acceptable? These are general questions related to the topic of this thread and aren’t about any one person or issue.

These are actually very simple questions, imo.
If you’re bothered by an artist’s beliefs and attitudes, is it acceptable to try to damage the reputation and career of the artist? Simple: no.
When is it acceptable to do such a thing? Simple: never.
Is it ever acceptable? Simple: no.
Either he will ruin his career on his own because of his beliefs and attitudes, or he will continue to be successful. There is absolutely no need to attempt to damage his reputation yourself. In most cases, his beliefs and attitudes are not going to be overly present in his art, and even if they are, no one is forcing you to support that art. But you can’t go actively campaigning against him (because your own attitude is definitely no better than his if you do).

A possible exception is when the artist in question is riling up others to do illegal acts. But since doing so is illegal in most countries too, I doubt he’ll be able to continue doing so for very long…

Jackal - 06 June 2013 09:51 PM

“Homophobe” is a stupid, meaningless word that should never have entered modern lexicon, but I don’t think anyone on these forums has even used it.

I think I’ve used it to describe Orson Scott Card a while ago. He’s made some horrible anti-gay statements in the past, and even though he’s mostly shifted his stance to a rigid defense of the definition of marriage as a union between a man and a woman, a lot of his views on homosexuality are iffy at best.
On the other hand, I still consider him my favourite writer, and the decline of quality in his books recently has more to do with him being “past his prime” than with his viewpoints.
In fact, none of his anti-gay mentality is noticeable in his stories. The main thing that’s obvious in his books is a strong sense of family values, which is nothing but positive. That alone is enough to separate the artist and the art, imo…

Dag - 07 June 2013 12:18 AM

If anyone is destroying TenNapels reputation, it’s TenNapel himself.

So true.
But at least I don’t think it’s hurting the Armikrog campaign much. It’s over halfway there with 19 days left to go…

     

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Just to be clear, given the word’s commonly accepted usage, it’s perfectly logical to refer to anti-gays as a “homophobes”. I just object to the creation of that particular word in the first place. By any reasonable etymology, it should really mean “fear of man”, which makes no sense at all. Even if you extend it to “fear of gays”, it’s still pretty dumb. Tongue

Although come to think of it, maybe such prejudice does come down to an irrational fear of things that are different and uncomfortable (to some) than themselves.

     

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I totally get why someone wants to defend the meaning or values of “conventional” marriage. In reality it just isn’t that simple.

Firstly, the definition on marriage has already changed a lot during history. Even now it differs in different parts of the world.

Secondly, while wanting to preserve something you find meaningful, doing so on the expense of others is really not that admirable. The injustice to others outweighs the benefits of preserving a rite.

I don’t like it when people throw around words like “homophobe” or “racist”, whether they are true or not. It’s just counterproductive. But the debate here never was that bad and for the most part where these kind of terms were mentioned, they weren’t about throwing dirt on specific people.

     

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Let’s be clear:  When people say “conventional marriage,” what they really mean is the 1950s Leave it to Beaver version of Christian marriage.

     
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Nice story in a Toronto paper (where I’m from) marking the ten-year anniversary of the first same-sex marriage allowed in Canada. 

Never vindictive or resentful, it’s just a personal, measured reflection of one guy who was given the right to marry as he pleased, even in the face of active opposition. It’s a good reminder (or indeed, a wake-up call for those who refuse to acknowledge it) that these are just ordinary people seeking the same rights as everyone else.

     

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