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chrissieHenk61

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What themes would you like to see more of in adventure games?

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Luhr28 - 10 May 2021 09:35 PM

So what about games about someone with a disability? In a wheelchair? Someone who’s deaf or mute? There’s been a game about a blind girl but it was more of a platformer/puzzle game. It would take a lot of creativity but I think it could be done.

There’s Beyond Eyes, but I don’t think that’s a platformer game? Are you referring to some other game?

I think I have seen some others too, but I can’t remember any titles at the moment.

 

     
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I thought of “DeLight: The Journey Home”, but it might be something else entirely.

     
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GateKeeper - 11 May 2021 02:39 AM
Luhr28 - 10 May 2021 09:35 PM

So what about games about someone with a disability? In a wheelchair? Someone who’s deaf or mute? There’s been a game about a blind girl but it was more of a platformer/puzzle game. It would take a lot of creativity but I think it could be done.

There’s Beyond Eyes, but I don’t think that’s a platformer game? Are you referring to some other game?

 

I was thinking of Another Sight. I knew about Beyond Eyes but forgot about it. Maybe I should check it out but the many descriptions of “walking simulator” on Steam reviews doesn’t bode well for the gameplay potential.

     
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While this is not necessarily a theme, I would love to see just straight up more detective games, with no Magical elements or cult elements, just a straight-up murder mystery.

     
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Vegetable Party - 11 May 2021 02:04 AM

Not just in the most obvious sense: you have a visual disability, so we’re going to limit the vision of the player. What are your interactions like with people who do/don’t understand your experience? How do people respond to you when you walk with a mobility tool or a service dog? When you’re most comfortable speaking sign language, but you put in a lot of effort to speak audibly, do people appreciate your effort? How often do they wrongfully make assumptions about your mental ability?

Is this still a game you’re describing? Will people have fun with it? Because it sounds more like you’re saying - life with disabilities is hard (it is), and I want to make sure everyone understands it, especially the social aspect. The last questions you wrote would make for some kind of disability simulator - where you getting social feedback and learning what people think about your disability. I can’t imagine all these questions being answered in a, say, mystery solving or some swashbuckling journey and still retain the aspect of adventure to them. Unless that’s what you meant - a sim where people learn to relate to struggle of others…

Also - “do people really appreciate your effort” - is wrong way to approach anything, including disability. You’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of upset and disappointment, when you make yourself dependent on someone else’s feedback. People around shouldn’t be expected to appreciate or not appreciate anything, mostly, they don’t think much of the situation at all, because they have their own lives to deal with.

I wouldn’t mind angle where a disabled person makes the best out of the cards they’ve been dealt and do something insane with it. Like become horrific deaf or wheel-chaired villain who managed to terrorize half the universe, or, say, mute amputee war vet who manages to be the savior of people in apocalyptic times… Something where the disability doesn’t define the person (and that’s what it would be if we got a game heavily based on their struggles and how are they perceived - you sort of reducing person to just those experiences, and they are much more than that). Where we can see the qualities that matter - how honest they are, how smart, how solid are their values, how funny, how stubborn - etc. And show them achieve great highs (or significant lows, because , obviously, not every disabled person is a good person) despite extra obstacle, instead of focusing just on that one part.

EDIT: Nine Witches game that I still think is one of the most underrated games of 2020 has a disabled professor as the main character. He has his own mental strengths, but when it comes to physical confrontations he becomes a temporary liability of his assistant which makes life slightly more difficult, just like it would in real life. This kind of back and forth - the assistant wouldn’t be able to progress without the mind of a professor, but the professor wouldn’t be able to progress without assistant protecting him made for a very interesting and enjoyable gameplay. The fact that this pair is fighting Nazis together, and how they go about it is on the whole other level of crazy Grin

     
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GateKeeper - 10 May 2021 02:29 PM

There are actually plenty of games about musicians, but they either aren’t very good and/or don’t even get completed!

For instance, Bolt Riley - A Reggae Adventure never got anywhere, the released thing was more like a demo, and I recently played Ancient Aliens - The Roots of Sound, which has an interesting premise, but only the first chapter was made, and just like Bolt Riley, the game doesn’t really go anywhere in that.

I have heard of Bolt Riley, but never tried it exactly because all the feedback about it was like it was a demo. They had interesting idea going, that’s for sure.

Haven’t even heard of Ancient Aliens, but I guess I didn’t lose anything Tongue

     
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Hystorical games would be interesting (like Cryo games but better).

     

Currently translating Strangeland into Spanish. Wish me luck, or send me money to my Paypal haha

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I almost forgot about Cryo! Haha definitely in the promising but not quite there category, if I remember correctly..

     
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DCast - 11 May 2021 08:37 AM

Is this still a game you’re describing? Will people have fun with it?

Sure, if it’s a well-designed game. Why wouldn’t it be?

I can’t imagine all these questions being answered in a, say, mystery solving or some swashbuckling journey and still retain the aspect of adventure to them. Unless that’s what you meant - a sim where people learn to relate to struggle of others…

I don’t mean a struggle sim. And I hope you can imagine a game like this, after this response. Smile I don’t mean to tell you off, I just want to present my case and show how this can be a positive thing, rather than the moralistic slog-fest you might imagine when you first read my suggestion. I do get why you’d make certain assumptions and I think it’s rather cool that you engage with me, even if you (at this point) disagree with me.

I don’t think acknowledging one (possibly minor) aspect of a persons life reduces them to this, or that a game that touches on these types of experiences is only going to be about these experiences. A game like this may include a fully rounded character, good puzzles + an interesting story and interactions. It might depict the character as a winner, or a loser, a hero or a villain, or something in between.

You could design a character with interesting hobbies, a distinct sense of humour, odd habits and other peculiarities. Maybe they have a job, maybe they don’t. Maybe they are in a relationship, or multiple relationships, or none. This can totally go hand in hand with the occasional realistic depiction of (for exmample) prejudice. I get the assumption you make, but I think that=‘s often due to an author’s limited understanding of issues, or limited ability in character building. Which is one of the reasons we need more actual, well-informed diversity. Not just people repeating social media talking-points.

Also - “do people really appreciate your effort” - is wrong way to approach anything, including disability. You’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of upset and disappointment, when you make yourself dependent on someone else’s feedback. People around shouldn’t be expected to appreciate or not appreciate anything, mostly, they don’t think much of the situation at all, because they have their own lives to deal with.

I’m not sure if that’s a lesson I can use. Honestly, I’d sooner say that’s a rather unhealthy way of engaging with others, psychologically.

Dealing with disappointment is an important aspect of life and growth, shielding yourself from these experiences makes you insular, boring and probably not very capable of dealing with it when it can’t be avoided. Expecting people not to be empathetic is also killing for your own capacity for empathy. (when I say you, I mean “a person”, not you specifically!)

I’m very glad I’m open to other people and their experiences, I’m fine with being hurt every now and then, when other people are not the way I’d hope for them to be. And I do have my own life to deal with. I don’t think that’s really a barrier. In fact, I’ve noticed that people whose lives are pretty much catered to are often not great at empathizing with others, or understanding the intricacies of life. They often just want to be met in their needs and see others as NPCs.

EDIT: Nine Witches game that I still think is one of the most underrated games of 2020 has a disabled professor as the main character. He has his own mental strengths, but when it comes to physical confrontations he becomes a temporary liability of his assistant which makes life slightly more difficult, just like it would in real life.

Wouldn’t that be an example of a character being reduced to and defined by disability? I think a lot of nuance is being left out. Dealing with being bound to a wheelchair is more than dealing with not being able to walk. It means you tend to sit when other people stand, for example. This does something to interactions. I think depicting that (subtly, not as a struggle sim) is more interesting than: this person is smart but because their body doesn’t work in a way we consider the norm, he is physically weak. Besides that, it’s also a bit of a unfair stereotype. A person in a wheelchair might be super-athletic. A person with two working legs might be a slouch.

I haven’t played the game and I’m not saying it does anything wrong. Fighting nazis while being in a wheelchair sounds like something I’d be on board with. Wink

All this being said; what’s your favourite depiction of someone very different from you? This can be in any way you can come up with, personality type, social status, etc.

     
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My two cents on the topic of inclusion and diversity in games, presented with an analogous example:
One of my jobs is selling specialty toys. There are a lot of companies that decide to ‘go green’ and create eco friendly and ‘responsible’ toys. Sometimes, the toys are coincidentally ecofriendly, maybe slightly more expensive, but the quality and functionality of the toy is not diminished by the green initiative of the company. And sometimes, and I kid you not, a company will manufacture a children’s coloring book that is printed on rough corrugated cardboard, from torn apart cardboard boxes. What we’re left with is a few pieces of cardboard bound together by organic hemp twine. No one wants to color on them. No one really can.
So, all of this inclusion, diversity, and social initiative is wonderful—and I mean that—but I think if you’re goal is to develop a *game*, a product that is first and foremost a *game* and not a piece of educational media, then you have to be very careful to be sure that the inclusion does not come at the expense of the game’s fun and playability. In short, even if the inclusion is absolutely *not* coincidental, it should *seem* coincidental. If you can accomplish that, and the rest of the game is good on its own merits, then by golly, you’ve done it.
Very few seem to have done it.

That said, perhaps accomplishing what I’ve described above takes practice, and goodness bless anyone for trying, right? I might not play the game, but there are worse ways to propagate one’s views than in an adventure game. Also much more effective ways, but that’s another thing entirely.

     

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Vegetable Party - 11 May 2021 03:58 PM
DCast - 11 May 2021 08:37 AM

Is this still a game you’re describing? Will people have fun with it?

Sure, if it’s a well-designed game. Why wouldn’t it be?

I can’t imagine all these questions being answered in a, say, mystery solving or some swashbuckling journey and still retain the aspect of adventure to them. Unless that’s what you meant - a sim where people learn to relate to struggle of others…

I don’t mean a struggle sim. And I hope you can imagine a game like this, after this response. Smile I don’t mean to tell you off, I just want to present my case and show how this can be a positive thing, rather than the moralistic slog-fest you might imagine when you first read my suggestion. I do get why you’d make certain assumptions and I think it’s rather cool that you engage with me, even if you (at this point) disagree with me.

I don’t think acknowledging one (possibly minor) aspect of a persons life reduces them to this, or that a game that touches on these types of experiences is only going to be about these experiences. A game like this may include a fully rounded character, good puzzles + an interesting story and interactions. It might depict the character as a winner, or a loser, a hero or a villain, or something in between.

You could design a character with interesting hobbies, a distinct sense of humour, odd habits and other peculiarities. Maybe they have a job, maybe they don’t. Maybe they are in a relationship, or multiple relationships, or none. This can totally go hand in hand with the occasional realistic depiction of (for exmample) prejudice. I get the assumption you make, but I think that=‘s often due to an author’s limited understanding of issues, or limited ability in character building. Which is one of the reasons we need more actual, well-informed diversity. Not just people repeating social media talking-points.

I think BB above me described my point better that I could have myself. As long as this doesn’t come at the expense of a game being “game”. It supposed to engage and, preferably, entertain and, of course sometimes, teach something. The problem is balance. Sure, you could make a character like what you describe, but the focus will inevitably shift on the personal/mental/physical issues if you want to give those any kinda depth at all. Which will take away from the active adventure aspect. It will largely depend on the kind of game is presented, but it seems to me it would be a more introspective slow-paced journey, because on top of complex inner qualities, developer also must work in additional layer AND sell it to people. At the moment, what you describing sounds like a very kind-hearted, well-intentioned desire that just doesn’t sound terribly exciting. If the game comes along that will hit all of these boxes - I’m all for it. But I don’t think that it’s necessarily a problem of limited understanding, there are plenty of talented authors out there.
I think it comes down to what you said “we need more well-informed diversity”, and I don’t think “need” is the right word. Who NEEDS it? Why? I sure don’t relate to any human being on the planet based on their physical qualities, be it a skin color or disability. I relate to them based on their internal qualities. I don’t think I’ve ever played a game and thought – “Well, it’s a great game, but I wish the character would be on the wheelchair!”, or “this game sucks, and if the character would be of different race, it would’ve fixed it”. I’m looking for personal qualities only. I largely don’t care if the character represents me or someone else or some other group. Are they cool? Smart? Fun? Spunky? Then we good to go.  Diversity should come naturally – when the author initially designed a character with that in mind. All the calls for it make many MAAAANY creators put a character in just to virtue signal and say that it is there, because of pressure and trends, and that takes away authenticity. Since people representing those groups make up a much smaller percentage of general population, and it is reasonable that a very small percent of overall gaming would be representative of them. I’d much rather play a rare very well-written game with a genuine angle on one of the issues, than ask for “more, more, more” and get token characters with token issues. I want character diversity – more interesting personalities, more strong personalities, the rest is up to the creator, and I’d rather it be genuine.

     
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Vegetable Party - 11 May 2021 03:58 PM

I’m not sure if that’s a lesson I can use. Honestly, I’d sooner say that’s a rather unhealthy way of engaging with others, psychologically.

Dealing with disappointment is an important aspect of life and growth, shielding yourself from these experiences makes you insular, boring and probably not very capable of dealing with it when it can’t be avoided. Expecting people not to be empathetic is also killing for your own capacity for empathy. (when I say you, I mean “a person”, not you specifically!)

I’m very glad I’m open to other people and their experiences, I’m fine with being hurt every now and then, when other people are not the way I’d hope for them to be. And I do have my own life to deal with. I don’t think that’s really a barrier. In fact, I’ve noticed that people whose lives are pretty much catered to are often not great at empathizing with others, or understanding the intricacies of life. They often just want to be met in their needs and see others as NPCs.

It’s not a lesson. It’s a prompt to do what you want to do without leaning on the feedback of the others, be your own person. There’s a saying in my native language that goes “You don’t seek kindness from kindness”, which means when you do something - do it genuinely, and don’t expect any kind of appreciation or even good feedback, because that’s what makes it sincere. When you expect something (even empathy, anything) - it is no longer pure.

As far as unhealthy way of engaging – it’s subjective, VP. I think approaching people with clean slate and giving them chance to show what they are is a much healthier way than immediately expect empathy from everyone. And no, my ability to be empathetic doesn’t depend on others being empathetic towards me, see above. I am the way I am regardless of how other people are with me.

Moreover, expecting something from people, especially appreciation – makes it seem like you think you’re entitled to it. If you put effort – that’s on your own accord, no one is supposed to appreciate it, if they do – that’s awesome, but what if they don’t? What, the effort is suddenly not worth it? Of course not. Whatever you do is worth it whether people appreciate it or not, keep doing it. (Not you, of course : ) -  proverbial “you” ). Appreciation is nice, but not expected, no.
And of course dealing with disappointment is a part of life, but I’d rather not subject myself to more when I can.  It’s OK to be hurt, absolutely. But it’s silly to get hurt when you expect things from a random person, and they looking at you like “what? Sorry, didn’t even notice you doing something”.
When I said people dealing with their own lives – I mean their own issues. They can be kind and tactful and polite, but it doesn’t mean they gonna have any deep feelings about someone else’s business. Not everything has to be so serious. Usually, it’s a series of very brief interactions with very little emotional engagement (if we’re talking strangers), and it’s OK.

 

EDIT: Nine Witches game that I still think is one of the most underrated games of 2020 has a disabled professor as the main character. He has his own mental strengths, but when it comes to physical confrontations he becomes a temporary liability of his assistant which makes life slightly more difficult, just like it would in real life.

Wouldn’t that be an example of a character being reduced to and defined by disability? I think a lot of nuance is being left out. Dealing with being bound to a wheelchair is more than dealing with not being able to walk. It means you tend to sit when other people stand, for example. This does something to interactions. I think depicting that (subtly, not as a struggle sim) is more interesting than: this person is smart but because their body doesn’t work in a way we consider the norm, he is physically weak. Besides that, it’s also a bit of a unfair stereotype. A person in a wheelchair might be super-athletic. A person with two working legs might be a slouch.

I haven’t played the game and I’m not saying it does anything wrong. Fighting nazis while being in a wheelchair sounds like something I’d be on board with. Wink

All this being said; what’s your favourite depiction of someone very different from you? This can be in any way you can come up with, personality type, social status, etc.

No, that wasn’t the focus of the game. It wasn’t anything about how hard it is to move around for him, or how people reacted to him, or his thoughts on his condition… None of that. It was just who he was and it affected dynamic of the characters in certain cases because they had to work together. The focus was on professor’s character and intellect, plus some “interesting” mental abilities. 😊 It’s good game, I really enjoyed it, although it’s pretty gore-y.

You’re very different from me, VP Grin I’m not sure what do you mean by “favorite depiction”? In games? If you give me an example, I might be better equip to answer.

Good talk!

     
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I think it comes down to what you said “we need more well-informed diversity”, and I don’t think “need” is the right word. Who NEEDS it? Why? I sure don’t relate to any human being on the planet based on their physical qualities, be it a skin color or disability. I relate to them based on their internal qualities.

I can’t really speak for or about you in this regard, but the “I don’t see colour” approach to diversity has pretty much proven a failure. People have a lot of unconscious bias and internalized norms/prejudice/expectations.

Creating and consuming media is an inherent part of that system. I think a lot of resistance to reevaluation of these cycles comes from people not wanting to think of themselves as prejudiced, or not wanting the world to be even more complicated than they already know it is.

I can sympathize up to some point, but it has so many downsides that I would rather challenge this reflex, even though I’m not always comfortable with taking on a discussion like this and standing out in this particular way..

It’s an inevitable process that works better and has fewer negative consequences when it’s understood. This process can be hard and uncomfortable.

Besides that, it can feel like a chore. Which seems a bit strange to me, for people who love adventure games. If you’re cool with fetch quests, dialogue trees and manually overcoming arbitrary obstacles, why not be on board with challenging yourself in this particular way?

I think games are great for this. They can package new ideas in a way that doesn’t feel like a full on criticism of all the structures you’ve built up in your mind. You can subtly pick up a notion you hadn’t considered before, you can open yourself up to experiences that you would otherwise avoid, because they’re outside your comfort zone. The game itself can be good.

We need more diversity because that will enable these stories to be authentic, meaningful, playful and interesting. We don’t need the same people who used to make games to do a palette swap of a protagonist, or include an idea they half understand and took from twitter. We need people with different experiences.

Another reason would be: people who are not like you want to tell stories as well. They’d probably agree about not wanting (what you call) virtue signalling from people who pretend to get what their lives are all about. But let’s not avoid these notions of diversity all together, because you fear they would ruin my fun. That would basically tell a lot of people: you can be part of my world, just don’t stand out in a way that doesn’t work for me.

I don’t think that’s right. I hope that answers your question.

     
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Alright this would get very long if I quote all of your second response directly! I did read it all and it’s very much appreciated.

Thanks for explaining in more detail what you meant, it’s pretty interesting! We’re indeed quite different, but I feel like I’m learning from this conversation and your tone is civil and respectful, which is greatly appreciated.

Good talk indeed! If there’s anything more on the matter you’d like to discuss, I’ll definitely read it and think about it some more, but from my part, I think I typed so much I’m wearing out my keyboard. Wink

Regarding your final question: you’re right, it was a bit open-ended. To be more specific: can you recall a character that made you go: wow, I can’t instantly relate to this person because they’re not like me at all, but I really enjoy this person’s journey, way of thinking, their actions (even though I would do things differently?)

An example for me would be: Zanthia, from “The Legend of Kyrandia: Hand of Fate, Book Two”. I was pretty young, but I loved her style, the fact that she lived in a swamp, wasn’t afraid to speak her mind and had a sense of humour about it. It kind of made me want to be more like her, in all those ways.

edit: yes, including living in a swamp!

     
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Vegetable Party - 12 May 2021 12:05 PM

I think it comes down to what you said “we need more well-informed diversity”, and I don’t think “need” is the right word. Who NEEDS it? Why? I sure don’t relate to any human being on the planet based on their physical qualities, be it a skin color or disability. I relate to them based on their internal qualities.

I can’t really speak for or about you in this regard, but the “I don’t see colour” approach to diversity has pretty much proven a failure. People have a lot of unconscious bias and internalized norms/prejudice/expectations.

Creating and consuming media is an inherent part of that system. I think a lot of resistance to reevaluation of these cycles comes from people not wanting to think of themselves as prejudiced, or not wanting the world to be even more complicated than they already know it is.

I can sympathize up to some point, but it has so many downsides that I would rather challenge this reflex, even though I’m not always comfortable with taking on a discussion like this and standing out in this particular way..

It’s an inevitable process that works better and has fewer negative consequences when it’s understood. This process can be hard and uncomfortable.

Besides that, it can feel like a chore. Which seems a bit strange to me, for people who love adventure games. If you’re cool with fetch quests, dialogue trees and manually overcoming arbitrary obstacles, why not be on board with challenging yourself in this particular way?

I think games are great for this. They can package new ideas in a way that doesn’t feel like a full on criticism of all the structures you’ve built up in your mind. You can subtly pick up a notion you hadn’t considered before, you can open yourself up to experiences that you would otherwise avoid, because they’re outside your comfort zone. The game itself can be good.

We need more diversity because that will enable these stories to be authentic, meaningful, playful and interesting. We don’t need the same people who used to make games to do a palette swap of a protagonist, or include an idea they half understand and took from twitter. We need people with different experiences.

Another reason would be: people who are not like you want to tell stories as well. They’d probably agree about not wanting (what you call) virtue signalling from people who pretend to get what their lives are all about. But let’s not avoid these notions of diversity all together, because you fear they would ruin my fun. That would basically tell a lot of people: you can be part of my world, just don’t stand out in a way that doesn’t work for me.

I don’t think that’s right. I hope that answers your question.

This is well said.

I’d like to add that while I also understand that people “forcing” diversity in games (or other media) might not always be a good thing, in my opinion lots of people tend to look at any diversity as “forcefully added”. It is not.

Just as well I might ask that why force the fit white straight male protagonist? Will using this able-bodied character suck all the fun out of the game? Of course it wont - there has to be (also) something else wrong if the game sucks. Using the old norm and the cliche is also a choice, and it’s definitley not always a good choice.

And like Vegetable Party said, if we want authentic diversity, it is best achieved by letting diverse people be a part of making those games.

I can also say honestly that I need more diversity.

     

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