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AGs, with unmatched original plots?

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GateKeeper - 11 January 2020 03:58 AM

But in all fairness, Disney did have comedic cartoon pirates in Peter Pan back in 1953, not only that, but there was also a Japanese animation series made in 1989. It’s very easy to see similarities at least in the pirate antagonist there.

Not really. Even this simplified, disneyfied LeChuck from The Curse of Monkey Island which was made by completely different people (if we are talking about the original Monkey Island concept) looks nothing like the Disney or Japanese Hook (never even heard of this anime). And getting the idea means inspiration, not copy-paste. Just in case I’ve been to the Disney ride, still not Monkey Island Smile

     

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Doom - 11 January 2020 08:59 AM

Not really. Even this simplified, disneyfied LeChuck from The Curse of Monkey Island which was made by completely different people (if we are talking about the original Monkey Island concept) looks nothing like the Disney or Japanese Hook (never even heard of this anime). And getting the idea means inspiration, not copy-paste. Just in case I’ve been to the Disney ride, still not Monkey Island Smile

(emphasis added)
Aren’t you just proving the point here?
The topic of the thread is not how similar characters look alike, it’s how original the idea is.

And if in 1953 Disney version as well as 1989 Japanese version we have a cartoony setting where a young boy is fighting a pirate antagonist, we also have in Monkey Island a cartoony setting with a young man who is fighting a pirate antagonist. Just think about the protagonist vs. antagonist properties; age/physical size difference and such. Although that as a concept goes all the way back thousands of years, but if we add the visual aspect to the equation, we have a set of titles to look at. And yes, the original games were beautiful pixel art which the later games sadly abandoned, but even so, the similarities are there. Not copy-paste, like you said, but think about the concept.

Obvious rip-offs like Great Giana Sisters vs. Super Mario Bros are another thing.

 

     
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Anything from Benoit Sokal is a worthy candidate to the “original plot”.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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calpolican - 09 January 2020 05:30 PM

I have to go with most Lucas art stories for originality:
>Monkey Island is probably one of the most original things ever. With the Pirates of the the crappy book come out.

So no one beside me has heard of this book and read Ron Gilbert’s interviews about its influence on him? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Stranger_Tides#Influence_on_other_works

     
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GateKeeper - 11 January 2020 09:33 AM

And if in 1953 Disney version as well as 1989 Japanese version we have a cartoony setting where a young boy is fighting a pirate antagonist, we also have in Monkey Island a cartoony setting with a young man who is fighting a pirate antagonist.

This is really far-fetched. In the cartoon an unaging flying boy is fighting a typical Disney villain now and then (can’t say anything about the anime as I haven’t seen it, and I doubt Ron Gilbert has seen it either as he started developing the plot back in 1988). In the game a young MAN who himself wants to become a pirate has to chase the undead pirate who stole his beloved and only at the end they meet and start something resembling a fight. And everything takes place in a properly developed Caribbean setting, not some dreamlike island shared by kids, pirates, Indians and mermaids. It might be described as the “knight-princess-dragon” variation or simply “good vs evil”, but then everything could be described like that. Say, Grim Fandnago - and that game doesn’t even try to hide its film noir roots, which still doesn’t mean that the GF universe is unoriginal.

     

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Doom - 11 January 2020 03:13 PM

This is really far-fetched. And everything takes place in a properly developed Caribbean setting, not some dreamlike island shared by kids, pirates, Indians and mermaids.

How far or near the similarities are totally depends on whether we look for similarities on micro or macro level, and how much. That’s one of the reasons why copyright infringement cases are always so debatable: how much can you copy and still have a unique creation? Even if the creative work is undeniably its own thing, the level of influences can be debated.

As far as “properly developed Caribbean setting” goes, I think used ship salesmen, Grog vending machines, three headed monkeys, vegetarian cannibals, and in sequels the Carnival of the Damned (with kids!) would in my opinion make the Monkey Island universe as dreamlike as Peter Pan is, if not even more so.

Doom - 11 January 2020 03:13 PM

It might be described as the “knight-princess-dragon” variation or simply “good vs evil”, but then everything could be described like that. Say, Grim Fandnago - and that game doesn’t even try to hide its film noir roots, which still doesn’t mean that the GF universe is unoriginal.

Yeah, Grim Fandango has unique elements, but how unique it is, really depends on what parts we are looking at. The story, the setting, the plot, the characters, something else?

At least you really need to think for a moment to remember anything like Grim Fandango, too bad that I never really liked the game itself that much, but maybe one of these days I replay it to see if I have some new approach to it after years have passed since I last played it.

Not related to the plot discussion that much, but Grim Fandango is my primary example on how people can be ignorant about some aspects if they like something excessively. Grim Fandango has been on many Top 10 point-and-click lists, even sometimes scoring the number one spot. But the game is not a point-and-click adventure, so it shouldn’t be on the list at all!  Pan
It wasn’t until ResidualVM fan patch, and later Remastered version brought point-and-click interface into the game.

 

     
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In general, originality is very difficult, as most things have been addressed in some form in either books, comics, movies or TV. The big question you should be looking really is, if the subject matter at hand is somewhat unique to the medium it is told in.

If you think in terms of pirate-themed games, then Monkey Island wasn’t even the first game to have pirates in it. It wasn’t even the first adventure game to have pirates in it. But I do think Monkey Island has as a whole a unique take on pirates for the time because of the mix of “historical” and contemporary elements the game world has.

This is not to say some other game didn’t do that before MI, as there were some comedy games made in the 80s wich mixed contemporary elements to historic settings quite freely. 

If a story is good or not, doesn’t really hang on how original it is, in the end. What weights more, in my opinion at least, is how well it is written and how the writer handles even the most familiar elements in it. Think of horror as an example, which is one of the most cliched forms of storytelling. You find the same elements from most of the horror games and movies, so in the end, the question is, how well and in what manner those elements are arranged in order to create something that actually manages to work. More of then than not, it fails, but when it works, it works.

     
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GateKeeper - 11 January 2020 04:02 PM

How far or near the similarities are totally depends on whether we look for similarities on micro or macro level, and how much. That’s one of the reasons why copyright infringement cases are always so debatable: how much can you copy and still have a unique creation? Even if the creative work is undeniably its own thing, the level of influences can be debated.

What’s the point in looking at a game at micro level? All ideas used in books/media could be traced back to Greek/Roman/Egyptian mythology, you won’t find anything new if you draw such comparisons as “this game and that cartoon both have pirates”. Tolkien’s books have dragons and wizards, so they are not original? And copyrighting should’ve really died by this time, nothing but a way to feed greedy people and corporations such as Disney who have been manipulating the copyright laws throughout years to cash in on their older titles.

As far as “properly developed Caribbean setting” goes, I think used ship salesmen, Grog vending machines, three headed monkeys, vegetarian cannibals, and in sequels the Carnival of the Damned (with kids!) would in my opinion make the Monkey Island universe as dreamlike as Peter Pan is, if not even more so.

Sure, that what gives the game an original touch. What I meant is that the world in Monkey Island is properly developed and could be easily recognized: medieval-ish times with some anachronisms, Caribbean archipelago, over-the-top pirates roaming the seas, all sort of distinctive islands. Nothing like that in the Peter Pan cartoon, just a weird lonely island where some annoying kids live side-by-side with a bunch of angry pirates who want to kill them for some reason. A very lazy screenplay saved only by amazing animation, humour and songs.

Yeah, Grim Fandango has unique elements, but how unique it is, really depends on what parts we are looking at. The story, the setting, the plot, the characters, something else?

At least you really need to think for a moment to remember anything like Grim Fandango

I’m not the greatest fan of Grim Fandango either (not a fan of film noir in general), but I can’t deny it has a very unique universe inspired by films noir, Mexican culture and Art Deco visual style. It’s quite easy to name many similarities if we look at it “at micro level”, but the combination of those things is what makes it a unique experience. Same with Monkey Island which is not just your usual pirate story, but a whole new world.

Grim Fandango has been on many Top 10 point-and-click lists, even sometimes scoring the number one spot. But the game is not a point-and-click adventure, so it shouldn’t be on the list at all!

Well, technically speaking you point Manny’s head and click the button) But then the term “point and click” was invented mostly to distance graphic adventures from text games.

     

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tomimt - 11 January 2020 06:44 PM

somewhat unique

I hate this! Something cannot be “somewhat unique”. It is either unique or it isn’t. Unique means “sole”, “without like” etc. which makes Advie’s original point ambiguous at best and bound to cause semantic differences.
Rather than crossing over into different artistic arenas it would be better to stick to Adventure (or Video if you’d prefer) Games. There will always be the first of “something” so, at that point, it is unique but others will come along and copy, utilise, whatever, that concept so that it is no longer unique and you have the start of a new genre or sub-genre.

Doom - 11 January 2020 06:46 PM

And copyrighting should’ve really died by this time, nothing but a way to feed greedy people and corporations such as Disney who have been manipulating the copyright laws throughout years to cash in on their older titles.

As someone who’s had a number of poems published if you think that you can take my creativity, use it for your own gain without any payment to myself, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. If you were to say the overreaching use of copyright I’d be more in agreement with you - Warner Music’s usage of copyright with “Happy Birthday To You” being a good case in point - but definitely not for anything created within the original author’s lifetime.

     

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Jabod - 12 January 2020 05:57 AM

Rather than crossing over into different artistic arenas it would be better to stick to Adventure (or Video if you’d prefer) Games.

Well in that case, I would like to nominate I Get This Call Every Day. I can’t really think of any other game, where the plot (if there is one really) is so simple, but still unique. In the game, you simply need to get through a phone call without getting fired.

To quote myself from a review that I wrote whenever I wrote it, “with many decades of previous games in and outside of the genre, there really isn’t any that would directly compare to I Get This Call Every Day”.

     
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Jabod - 12 January 2020 05:57 AM

As someone who’s had a number of poems published if you think that you can take my creativity, use it for your own gain without any payment to myself, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. If you were to say the overreaching use of copyright I’d be more in agreement with you - Warner Music’s usage of copyright with “Happy Birthday To You” being a good case in point - but definitely not for anything created within the original author’s lifetime.

I have hundreds of poems, stories and articles published in offline and online magazines and elsewhere, and I don’t really care if someone republish them - I’m no Dickens nor Tolstoy, and I would have even less concern if I was (this century sure lacks geniuses despite all those great copyright laws). Now if a publisher doesn’t pay me or, say, a film production company uses my screenplay to produce a movie without paying, I would consider it a theft. Only in that case the copyright law didn’t help me at all. Because authors are not the main beneficiaries, their artistic freedom is only getting more restricted with each new law, article, etc. Also the reason why Kickstarter, Patreon, humble bundles gained popularity.

     

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Doom - 12 January 2020 10:59 AM
Jabod - 12 January 2020 05:57 AM

As someone who’s had a number of poems published if you think that you can take my creativity, use it for your own gain without any payment to myself, you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. If you were to say the overreaching use of copyright I’d be more in agreement with you - Warner Music’s usage of copyright with “Happy Birthday To You” being a good case in point - but definitely not for anything created within the original author’s lifetime.

I have hundreds of poems, stories and articles published in offline and online magazines and elsewhere, and I don’t really care if someone republish them - I’m no Dickens nor Tolstoy, and I would have even less concern if I was (this century sure lacks geniuses despite all those great copyright laws). Now if a publisher doesn’t pay me or, say, a film production company uses my screenplay to produce a movie without paying, I would consider it a theft. Only in that case the copyright law didn’t help me at all. Because authors are not the main beneficiaries, their artistic freedom is only getting more restricted with each new law, article, etc. Also the reason why Kickstarter, Patreon, humble bundles gained popularity.

So you’re happy for others to benefit financially from your creative ability without recompense to yourself? I’m not. Don’t know where you are in the world but here in the UK anyone publishing in a paid for volume would find themselves in court. The example you’ve given regarding yourself I don’t believe could happen here once your intellectual property rights had been established. I’ve happily allowed some stuff to be published in small, not for profit, compilations but I’ve done that after being approached by same and given permission quite cheerfully - and that’s the right way to do things.

     

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Jabod - 12 January 2020 11:24 AM

So you’re happy for others to benefit financially from your creative ability without recompense to yourself? I’m not. Don’t know where you are in the world but here in the UK anyone publishing in a paid for volume would find themselves in court. The example you’ve given regarding yourself I don’t believe could happen here once your intellectual property rights had been established. I’ve happily allowed some stuff to be published in small, not for profit, compilations but I’ve done that after being approached by same and given permission quite cheerfully - and that’s the right way to do things.

Not happy, more like amused when some trusty readers sent me links to the slightly changed or copy-pasted texts published under different names, demanding revenge. This happened back in the day when I was writing a lot. I know the British legal system is probably the best in the world, and I studied copyright laws in my university (which are pretty much the same across Europe), but suing some lazy student who can’t write his own article or a poem? Of course, I might’ve felt different if I wrote something fundamental, like a 700-page novel, but I’m more concerned about corporate bosses holding on to the licenses which belong to such masterminds as Ron Gilbert, Jane Jensen or Tom Hall, persecuting fans or those who dare to use unlicensed music/images. One of the reasons I stopped watching/playing anything by them, supporting indie authors instead.

     

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Are you people familiar with the Tardigrades vs. Star Trek: Discovery case?

http://anas-tronaut.blogspot.com/2017/10/star-trek-discovery-tardigrades.html


The case didn’t go further in the court, so supposedly there’s no plagiarism there, or maybe the guy had bad lawyers working on his case, who knows.

     
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Doom - 12 January 2020 04:44 PM
Jabod - 12 January 2020 11:24 AM

So you’re happy for others to benefit financially from your creative ability without recompense to yourself? I’m not. Don’t know where you are in the world but here in the UK anyone publishing in a paid for volume would find themselves in court. The example you’ve given regarding yourself I don’t believe could happen here once your intellectual property rights had been established. I’ve happily allowed some stuff to be published in small, not for profit, compilations but I’ve done that after being approached by same and given permission quite cheerfully - and that’s the right way to do things.

Not happy, more like amused when some trusty readers sent me links to the slightly changed or copy-pasted texts published under different names, demanding revenge. This happened back in the day when I was writing a lot. I know the British legal system is probably the best in the world, and I studied copyright laws in my university (which are pretty much the same across Europe), but suing some lazy student who can’t write his own article or a poem? Of course, I might’ve felt different if I wrote something fundamental, like a 700-page novel, but I’m more concerned about corporate bosses holding on to the licenses which belong to such masterminds as Ron Gilbert, Jane Jensen or Tom Hall, persecuting fans or those who dare to use unlicensed music/images. One of the reasons I stopped watching/playing anything by them, supporting indie authors instead.

I think, Doom, that we’re pretty much on the same page here. Plagiarism isn’t something I’m likely to suffer (have suffered) from. Poetry rarely gets hit that way and should it happen, unless something of mine was plagiarised and became a popular hit, I’d never know about it. Some technical stuff I’ve written for work has, I think, been nicked and passed off by colleagues when they’ve moved to new jobs but that work isn’t my copyright as it belongs to my employers at the time so the problem, if they see it as such, is theirs.
I’ve already commented about overreaching use of copyright so I think we’re in complete agreement there.

     

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