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are there rules for stories that suit Adventures?

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Advie - 11 December 2017 10:48 AM

or sometimes this good story couldn’t be an adventure game?

I was ans to this, good story many times cannot be AG, and instead of blanket statements i gave examples
Now if we are predisposed to downplay one factor on preferences and hype other, thats another issue

     
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nomadsoul - 13 December 2017 06:15 AM
Advie - 11 December 2017 10:48 AM

or sometimes this good story couldn’t be an adventure game?

I was ans to this, good story many times cannot be AG, and instead of blanket statements i gave examples
Now if we are predisposed to downplay one factor on preferences and hype other, thats another issue

i can hardly understand tho i do understand each word on its own of what you posted now.
but i must say anything one says here is Valid nomad, i only to pointed out that stories are imaginative, so we cant start to tackle with others imagination and create something of of it. i guess that’s a lost case.. stories need be handled as raw as they are whether to A developer, director, or animator.. dont you agree?

     
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Advie - 13 December 2017 07:17 AM

i must say anything one says here is Valid nomad

Then tell me how Pyre or even RedDead(for easier explanation) would work as AG?

Would you be satisfied with removing actions scenes of Predator(movie) just to fit in some genre?
You want to remove outlaws infested, gun totting wild west story of RedDead with puzzle solving to deliver same narrative with same emotions?

Advie - 13 December 2017 07:17 AM

stories need be handled as raw as they are whether to A developer, director, or animator.. dont you agree?

In games story and game mechanics are not mutually exclusive
And the more you divert mechanics it forms new genre

 

 

     
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nomadsoul - 13 December 2017 08:56 AM
Advie - 13 December 2017 07:17 AM

i must say anything one says here is Valid nomad

Then tell me how Pyre or even RedDead(for easier explanation) would work as AG?

Would you be satisfied with removing actions scenes of Predator(movie) just to fit in some genre?
You want to remove outlaws infested, gun totting wild west story of RedDead with puzzle solving to deliver same narrative with same emotions?

Advie - 13 December 2017 07:17 AM

stories need be handled as raw as they are whether to A developer, director, or animator.. dont you agree?

In games story and game mechanics are not mutually exclusive
And the more you divert mechanics it forms new genre

 

its hard to sustain a dialogue with ye man, either you are too genius or i am too stupid.
but i know you have cut a phrase from a whole sentence which tells a case and a conclusion. you gave only the latter.

stories are imaginative, so we cant start to tackle with others imagination, stories need be handled as raw as they are whether to A developer, director, or animator.. dont you agree


we need to finish one matter and then deal with another, do you think stories taken out an of an adaptation is the same as the one taken outta the story itself, remember Do Androids and BR, they were almost different things, so when you make adaptation for an adaption you find yourself stuck whereas the product comes out something like, ‘how can i say it’.. ah ‘loyal’ to the adaptation, but if they want really to make an adventure they should’ve gone to the book (from scratch) from Do Androids.

so (i.e) making Pyre an adventure the dev should ask for the papers, the sketches , story written before when they started to develop it.

that one matter either we* (+tomimt) come to a conclusion at or agree to not…., or last option just ‘forget about it’ in Johnny Depp’s voice. Content

     
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All I’m going to add to this is, that having action doesn’t invalidate game from being an adventure game. You can even use action as a puzzle element like Superhot does. In that, you string up action scenes in slow-mo and then play them at full speed.

     
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Advie its really hard to give an idea if you yourself wont go through the experience
The best way is to install Pyre and play it as a whole to have first hands impression instead of second hand impressions of cross comparisons for idle chat

To keep the argument simpler, i believe some stories are best suited for particular genre
And yes are more effective in that

these are complicated matters, and you want simple answer, heck we can even argue if playing with joypad vs touch controls in Pyre can alter experience and argue all day

Yes you can have adaptions across transmedia but how much one is watered down is another matter, there is streetfighter movie and Deathnote one too
I dont think Deathnote tv anime even does justice because it butchered manga

So genre in games can be similar stuff

     
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I think you can adapt any story to an adventure game with enough time and patience and with the keyword being adapt not copy. a good example of this is borderlands which was a straight up action loot based game with very little narrative and I think telltale made one of its best adventure games out of that source material.

So in that same way I think a Red Dead Redemption game would work as an adventure game bc of the western genre use of standard themes and how their stories are told. Most western narratives are very simple in the way they are told, the crux off them working is usually more to do with the characters and how invested you are in them than the story itself; which is where I think adventure games can shine aka character development. So I could see telltale doing a companion piece to RDR and it being successful financially and critically.

Than there are some games in my personal opinion that would work far better as standard “puzzle adventure” type of game than action/adventure games. take the last guardian I found the controls to be wonky and unresponsive (I know that it was supposedly a game design choice, even though going all the way back to other games of theirs such as Ico or shadows their controls were always wonky and unresponsive)  Wink, it did not work for me. I think the game could have given the same emotions to the player as a standard adventure game with just some minor tweaking, and the control and camera problems could have been solved to some degree.

     

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Plots that take main character to different locations can give player new goals without forcing goals into the same location. You can keep goals in one location varied but there is danger of having tedious amount of “get into another room of same building” puzzles. Original Black Mirror while it took you to other locations besides main castle, in my mind had too many “get in another room in castle” puzzles. It is so “game design from Maniac Mansion era” don’t you think?

     
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I believe the most usual approach is to first construct the game mechanics and then write a story that fits with those. I agree that pretty much any story can be applied to any type of game while some are obviously better adapted for certain genres than others.

If we’re talking about adapting an already existing story to a game than that’s a whole different matter. Most stories in books, movies ect. contains many different elements while games are usually based around one or just a couple of main game mechanics.

It’s obviously common to look at things from other medias that is very closely related to the game you’re making for inspiration. For example, the Langdon-books and Macgyver really are adventure games in book and television show formats.

     

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Another thing -you can take story that is hard to adapt into game like tragic story and then use the same conflict but resolve it in more suitable form for game. You can view tragic outcome as failed gameplay and give in game the player ways to play well Grin

     
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garbo - 16 December 2017 01:40 PM

Another thing -you can take story that is hard to adapt into game like tragic story and then use the same conflict but resolve it in more suitable form for game. You can view tragic outcome as failed gameplay and give in game the player ways to play well Grin


(Save Point #9 by Kieron Gillen and Jamie McKelvie)

     
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Lets talk about recent Hitman or a similar game situation
You are given a goal to assassinate a target

-You explore a small town and disguise as Priest by killing him, and go to targets location to attend funeral , get your chance alone and kill him
-You explore and get a window of opportunity to poison the meal, and kill him
-You get info on targets scheduled psychology session, use stealth to kill and dump Psy counselor in the middle of street, and get target alone
-You get to targets location as butler and expose your true identity and get other side of the coin, he reveals that the person who has given us mission is true culprit and offer a chance(by bribe) to kill that person instead, you can leave him
-You use your traditional sniper way and kill him from afar
-You rig his boat when he use for scheduled trip , he gets owned
-You take everyone out all guns blazing

You can treat some ways mentioned above as adventure gaming, as lots of exploration and minimal action
But as soon as you take more action route , you steer away from genre limitations(which it uses to define itself)
But benefit of action adventure(or other genres as my point was), it will cover AG elements as well as other stuff with more room to experiment instead of limited framework

In Actionadventure you get more room to express same story in different ways, more non linear, more emergent, since its not working in confinement of stricter laws

In each case it wont be same story, it wont elicit same response or emotion

I never said more room the better, but to ans AG and Tommint as you can do same story with same impact and justice, nope, infact if game story is suited to work as AG only, it might best work as one
If Firewatch had small hunting mechanics in between with more chatter, and hunting beer scenario with more action, it might be same story
If you remove abysmal puzzles in Brokensword3&4, it wont make much difference either
If you will add puzzles to Dreamfall it might make story worse if they dont know how to make one

     

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Maybe Advie wants to say that almost any conflict can be presented in form of story that is suitable for adventure game? For Nomadsoul’s example of Predator, while it’s conflict wouldn’t fit into any kind of story, conflict with aliens hunting human beings could probably fit in story that is more similar to ones in mystery movies or ones in slightly slower action thrillers in vein of classic James Bond movies.

     
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garbo - 20 December 2017 01:47 PM

Maybe Advie wants to say that almost any conflict can be presented in form of story that is suitable for adventure game?

Any story can be presented in any form, even in a form of blog or post in this thread, novel or movie etc
My issue was with assertion that it will illicit same response, do same justice, same emotional response etc
It wont, i can write down Pyre story here
You can make any action game out there with all killings mapped on one button like that HeavyRain scene, might as well skip it like LAnoire

I dont buy that, not the same thing
Yes Borderlands stories can be told, but can you tell Borderlands2 story(exact same one)
without action/shooting?
Yes but it wont be same thing
I think best way to figure this put is to make exact same game with one version without it and one with it
There are MGS2 motion comics btw, if anyone who buys this concept want to enjoy MGS2 story and not play the game

Mechanics many times justify narrative emotionally,mentally and physically , psychical connection with games(joypad/keyboard) and nature of different genres drive it

garbo - 20 December 2017 01:47 PM

while it’s conflict wouldn’t fit into any kind of story, conflict with aliens hunting human beings could probably fit in story that is more similar to ones in mystery movies or ones in slightly slower action thrillers in vein of classic James Bond movies.

But 007 fighting Predator in jungle would be a disaster
Thats what they are implying with mixing genre attributes
007 is separate film genre even though they both have action
Unless you want to make 007 Scifi flick with alien beings

 

     

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nomadsoul - 20 December 2017 02:20 PM

Any story can be presented in any form, even in a form of blog or post in this thread, novel or movie etc
My issue was with assertion that it will illicit same response, do same justice, same emotional response etc


Are you arguing that content and form of piece of media or piece of art can’t be wholly separated? In strict sense i would answer yes, they can’t. But in so strict sense one could argue there are only particular pieces of media and even genre labels are somewhat unfair generalisations. (No two games in supposed genre have exactly same gameplay and have same impact on players.)
The way Advie used word “story” he seemed to have given attention to only some aspects of stories. That’s why i assumed he was talking about conflicts. Maybe he wasn’t and he just didn’t think about other aspects of stories

     

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