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Abhi D.angelus_04Snitchy

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Should support of an artist be influenced by their beliefs/attitudes?

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Jackal - 04 June 2013 04:24 PM

Luckily, my credibility on no way, shape or form depends on your approval, Bonsai.

i had heard something similar like that from some president of a a third world country some years ago Tongue

all counts , everyone does.

     
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Blackthorne - 04 June 2013 09:34 AM
Quest1 - 04 June 2013 07:48 AM

I say we reject the political and cultural witch hunt instigators!

Sounds good.  Why don’t you do the same?  You’re so quick to meet out judgement and commentary on “Whiny Liberals”.  You’re doing the exact same thing you’re railing against.


Bt

Actually, I have never suggested that anyone refrain from supporting a Kickstarter because I disagreed with the project creator’s political beliefs. I don’t go around asking everyone what they think about this or that issue.

Look, I’m sorry if I offended anyone for bringing up whiny liberals who want ever more amounts of free stuff paid for by other people.

And I’m not even going to touch the laughable notion that supporting the current definition of marriage is oppression and a grave human rights issue. That is an insult to actual human rights issues. Also not going to get into Obama’s transparently opportunistic announcement of a so-called change of position. People can disagree on this issue, but taking a particular position here in no way entitles someone to be tarred as “hateful” and a bigot. And, sigh, you knew Fox News would come up. “Well, well, well, I bet you listen to Fox News!” It’s like the cheapest, most cliched line in the book. Some people are so obsessed with Fox News. I guess having 99% of the media reinforcing their views isn’t enough, so they have to rail against the one channel that doesn’t kiss Obama’s butt 24/7.

As for the Occupy Wall Street slobs who poop on police cars and are envious of hard-working, successful people, I already said I would consider supporting an adventure game project by one of them. As long as they don’t go the Telltale Games route of simply stringing together a bunch of non-playable cutscenes without providing any real potential for exploration and challenging puzzles.

     
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Quest1 - 05 June 2013 12:46 AM

Actually, I have never suggested that anyone refrain from supporting a Kickstarter because I disagreed with the project creator’s political beliefs. I don’t go around asking everyone what they think about this or that issue.

Look, I’m sorry if I offended anyone for bringing up whiny liberals who want ever more amounts of free stuff paid for by other people.

And I’m not even going to touch the laughable notion that supporting the current definition of marriage is oppression and a grave human rights issue. That is an insult to actual human rights issues. Also not going to get into Obama’s transparently opportunistic announcement of a so-called change of position. People can disagree on this issue, but taking a particular position here in no way entitles someone to be tarred as “hateful” and a bigot. And, sigh, you knew Fox News would come up. “Well, well, well, I bet you listen to Fox News!” It’s like the cheapest, most cliched line in the book. Some people are so obsessed with Fox News. I guess having 99% of the media reinforcing their views isn’t enough, so they have to rail against the one channel that doesn’t kiss Obama’s butt 24/7.

As for the Occupy Wall Street slobs who poop on police cars and are envious of hard-working, successful people, I already said I would consider supporting an adventure game project by one of them. As long as they don’t go the Telltale Games route of simply stringing together a bunch of non-playable cutscenes without providing any real potential for exploration and challenging puzzles.

And I had such high hopes for you.

     
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so what else the world needs, gay marriage , ok ,marijuana ok? , mercy killings ....
maybe a muslim’s permitted new holocaust .

i wish i knew that there are people like Quest1 in this world long ago.

     
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Quest1 - 05 June 2013 12:46 AM

As long as they don’t go the Telltale Games route of simply stringing together a bunch of non-playable cutscenes without providing any real potential for exploration and challenging puzzles.

This is the most intelligent thing you’ve said in this thread Thumbs Up

Now can we ditch the stereotypes? I feel like I’m watching a shadow boxing match. Each side is attacking cartoonish, highly negative outlines of people which probably exist somewhere in the world, but surely not on our highly cultured forum for intellectually advanced adventure games Smile

     
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Advie - 05 June 2013 01:19 AM

so what else the world need, gay marriage , ok ,marijuana ok , mercy killings ....
maybe a muslim’s permitted new holocaust .

i wish i knew that there are people like Quest1 in this world long ago.

I wish I could fully comprehend your English.

     
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i remember (really) broke up once with a girl because of my english,lol i sent her an SMS and she didnt fully comprehend and he rebuked me about it but the funniest thing that she told me i need to revise my SMSs from now on before i send her anything new ... i guess you can expect the rest of this nonsense .

     
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Zifnab - 05 June 2013 01:32 AM
Quest1 - 05 June 2013 12:46 AM

As long as they don’t go the Telltale Games route of simply stringing together a bunch of non-playable cutscenes without providing any real potential for exploration and challenging puzzles.

This is the most intelligent thing you’ve said in this thread Thumbs Up

Now can we ditch the stereotypes? I feel like I’m watching a shadow boxing match. Each side is attacking cartoonish, highly negative outlines of people which probably exist somewhere in the world, but surely not on our highly cultured forum for intellectually advanced adventure games Smile

Hehe, well, just so people know, for the most part I was never really addressing anyone here personally. I was directing my comments at the situation. I saw an effort elsewhere to try to harm Armikrog’s chances because TenNapel dared express his political opinions. What TenNapel said was tame and reasonable. Some people will disagree with him and think he’s wrong. Ok, so what? I’m surprised that some people here haven’t learned that supporting marriage tradition does not mean someone is anti-gay. Maybe someday these people will learn. Just don’t want to get into it much here.  Others were trying to associate his name with “bigot” in google search result suggestions, etc.  I felt like it was important to speak out against the actual hate being directed at this man. It reminded me of those stupid, so-called “hate speech” laws in other countries that try to punish people for expressing unpopular ideas that offend people. Also, I thought it was terrible that some intolerant people would be willing to try to bring down a promising campaign out of pure vindictiveness.

And P.S. - Advie’s English is wonderful and I love the way he phrases things!

     
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Lambonius - 04 June 2013 08:49 PM
Mister Ed - 04 June 2013 06:02 PM

If (as one possible example) it has something to do with providing the public a benefit by encouraging stability in families as they raise children, then it would suggest that the reasoning DOESN’T apply equally, as heterosexual pairings are FAR more likely to involve children. But even if that is the case, one could certainly argue that that reasoning is faulty, due to the divorce rate, or the fact that many marriages don’t produce children, or that some homosexual families DO include children, so that for that reasoning to be applied fairly it would hinge on whether children were present. In any case, I think it more appropriate to make a case from a standpoint of fairness in the offering of said benefits, rather than appealing to some “basic human right”.

As an aside, the argument that heterosexual marriages should receive special benefits because they are more likely to involve the raising of children falls apart because these benefits are extended to heterosexual married couples regardless of whether or not the actually do have children.  Since, as you pointed out, homosexual couples can also choose to have children or not, then the likelihood of whether or not they do really has no bearing on the issue.

Woah, I’m actually agreeing with you 100% on something Wink.

And to the issue why they the registered partnership should not be separated from the “traditional” marriage (one can debate what really is traditional as traditions vary in different parts of world and in different times): because all kinds of registers and legal documents are not supposed to ask one their sexual orientation. “Registered partnership” screams homosexual, and while there is nothing wrong or shameful about being one, a person should not be forced to reveal his/her sexual orientation in every occasion.

Personally I wouldn’t mind if registered partnership would not become “marriage” as long as the legal rights were identical and the necessity to state your marital status was removed from everything that doesn’t explicitly require it (like a marriage license or something). Though I can’t really understand what sanctity it would break to just call every marriage a marriage.

     

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millenia - 05 June 2013 02:55 AM

Though I can’t really understand what sanctity it would break to just call every marriage a marriage.

Don’t worry, you don’t need to. Thankfully, hurting someone’s religious feelings has long been irrelevant in legislating anything.

     
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Why not polyamorous marriage?

     
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If the issue truly was about preserving the definition of a word, then gay marriage should be perfectly fine as long as it’s called something else, right? So why aren’t the anti-gay-marriage people making suggestions for a better word to label such an institution, rather than suggesting that gay marriage should be illegal alltogether? The “supporting the definition of marriage”-argument just doesn’t make any sense. How could ever preserving the definition of a simple word be more important than ending discrimination?

The term “marriage” has been around for much longer than we have, so one can only assume that the meaning of the word was being defined in a time where homosexuality was treated as a sick perversion, so maybe it’s about time to loosen the definition a bit? Being gay is not a choice, it’s not a phase, it’s not a rebellion, and making laws which in effect only serves to making their lives more difficult isn’t gonna make them go away, it’s just gonna make them feel less valuable as human beings, and that is, no matter what some people have convinced themselves, discrimination.

     

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Well, it is about redefining marriage. People want to remove the gendered component. Gender roles have been very important to marriage. Why not remove the requirement that it involves pairs. Why not end discrimination against polyamorous people?

You don’t have to pass judgement on various sexual orientations to recognize that this is a massive change. Is it so wrong to be skeptical, to step back and to ask, “what are we gaining with this societal change, what are we losing?” Marriage has been central to society and raising children. It is not just “a word.” We know there is a huge difference between how well children with married moms and dads do compared to other arrangements. This question of marriage and what it means is a big deal. It will have a huge effect on our future. The typical, “but it won’t affect heterosexual marriage” brush-off is a lie. It affects everyone. It affects how we think about marriage, what we teach our children about marriage, what the state’s interests are in promoting marriage, etc. It’s a question of long-term effects. Where does this lead? How will this allow us to further change what it means to be married in 15 years?

Why ridicule and smear people who are rightly concerned about this? We hear, “oh, shut up, you evil, hateful, bigoted bigoty bigot!”  Really, is it so helpful to scream “hater!” at people who are skeptical of a major change to something so important to society?

At the very least, the question should give us pause. It’s not as simple as, “you’re either for equality or you’re not!” I know that most of us want to be seen as nice and fair and want all people to enjoy equal rights. But to dishonestly boil down the issue to equality vs. discrimination is to shortchange marriage. Isn’t something as important as this deserving of a more serious, honest debate? I’m speaking generally here and not talking about this forum.

     
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As I said before, to the original question “Should support of an artist be influenced by their beliefs/attitudes?” - this is really a personal and a case-by-case situation.  There is no hard, fast and correct answer than can be applied in every situation. The case that spurred this discussion was Doug TenNapel.  One can always choose to do whatever they wish with their money - and if they feel Armikrog (and thus Doug TenNapel) is a project worth supporting.  People can pledge or not pledge for whatever reason they want.  If they think he’s a bigot and they don’t want to - that’s their deal.  If you think he’s an American hero, and you want to pledge because you like him and his game, that’s your deal.  If you think he’s a blowhard, but you like the game, that’s your right to pledge if you want to.

Don’t worry, either way - he’s not hurting for Kickstarter money, or doing bad in the fan/friend zone.  He had a Kickstarter last year for his SKETCH BOOK.  Here’s the final numbers.

$116,144
pledged of $18,000 goal - Oct 21, 2012
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1812253609/doug-tennapel-sketchbook-archives

He’s controversial, for sure - and that’s always going to sell.  He does say some divisive things, and that’s not always an un-calculated move.


Also, Quest1, you are just wrong about everything you say regarding marriage, and history will bury you and that opinion you espouse.


Bt

     
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Quest1 - 05 June 2013 07:49 AM

Well, it is about redefining marriage. People want to remove the gendered component. Gender roles have been very important to marriage. Why not remove the requirement that it involves pairs. Why not end discrimination against polyamorous people?

Just pointing out that the “requirement that it involves pairs” is only a few hundred years old, and only in Judeo-Christian oriented societies.  You’re gonna have to find a better strawman than that, dude.

     

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