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The ongoing gay marriage debate - have your say, mind your manners

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Mister Ed - 21 June 2013 12:20 AM

but that’s certainly not what I would call orthodox Christianity.

Sure, but I wouldn’t call orthodox Christianity (in the broad sense) and being true to the bible necessarily the same thing.
While you could argue that god makes no mistakes and has everything planned out (though in my opinion he is described as quite erratic, at least in the olden days) people do. To assume everyone ever involved in the various interpretations of the scripture or the synods was guided by the holy spirit seems quite a stretch to me, and I personally haven’t met (for example) that many Roman Catholics who really believe the pope holds any true religious authority, let alone is infallible. For most of those I met, their Christianity is defined by a much more personal relationship with god, similar to what you described earlier.

     
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I think the problem wih gay marriage is about child raising,what’s the possibility of a
child brought up by parents who gay/lesbian not to have same kind of relationships,
if you say that’s normal to this where’s the meaning of family left,and what’s is left
a child with two mothers or fathers reality of selfism.

     

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Gabe - 01 July 2013 02:39 PM

I think the problem wih gay marriage is about child raising,what’s the possibility of a
child brought up by parents who gay/lesbian not to have same kind of relationships,
if you say that’s normal to this where’s the meaning of family left,and what’s is left
a child with two mothers or fathers reality of selfism.

First of all, there is absolutely no evidence to support the idea that the sexual orientation of the parents has any affect on the sexual orientation of the child raised by said parents.  If that were the case, all those straight parents who have gay kids would have some explaining to do.

And secondly, who cares??  A kid being homosexual is only a problem if you have a bigoted view of homosexuals, and consider them “deviants.”

     
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Gabe - 01 July 2013 02:39 PM

I think the problem wih gay marriage is about child raising,what’s the possibility of a
child brought up by parents who gay/lesbian not to have same kind of relationships,
if you say that’s normal to this where’s the meaning of family left,and what’s is left
a child with two mothers or fathers reality of selfism.

A child does not turn homosexual because of upbringing. It’s not something they become, it’s something they either *are* or *are not*.
Children raised by homosexual parents are no more likely to be gay than children raised by heterosexual parents. The only difference is that because of their upbringing they’ll be more tolerant. And that’s a good thing…

     

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Unless I am being more dense than usual I think you have misunderstood Gabe’s post Lambo and Timo.

I read his post as saying that a child with 2 mums or 2 dads will not have the same parental relationships as a child with one of each. Personally, I had a mum and a dad and I related to them differently and wouldn’t have wanted to give one up for a double dose of the other.

     

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Intense Degree - 02 July 2013 03:44 AM

Unless I am being more dense than usual I think you have misunderstood Gabe’s post Lambo and Timo.

I read his post as saying that a child with 2 mums or 2 dads will not have the same parental relationships as a child with one of each. Personally, I had a mum and a dad and I related to them differently and wouldn’t have wanted to give one up for a double dose of the other.

Even so would we deny the possibility of single, abandoned, divorced or widowed people to have or to keep their existing children? Abusive mom and dad are certainly not better than one or two loving moms. I’m sure wealthy people can provide children much better too, and healthy people, so deny children from poor and sick?

Personally, if I had had two moms or dads I’m pretty sure that I would have loved them exactly and wouldn’t want to trade either of them for the opposite sex.

     

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millenia - 02 July 2013 03:50 AM

Even so would we deny the possibility of single, abandoned, divorced or widowed people to have or to keep their existing children? Abusive mom and dad are certainly not better than one or two loving moms. I’m sure wealthy people can provide children much better too, and healthy people, so deny children from poor and sick?

Of course not and I agree with you except for the wealthy part - I think children of wealthy people can miss out on just as much as children of poor people.

Personally, if I had had two moms or dads I’m pretty sure that I would have loved them exactly and wouldn’t want to trade either of them for the opposite sex.

Naturally you would love them as any child would and I am not suggesting that homosexuals are somehow unable to love children either. The point I made was that, from my personal perspective, 2 loving parents of opposite sexes is the ideal and anything else, either single parent families, same sex parents or whatever else is second place.

I am also not saying that second place is worthless, merely not the ideal.

I’m sure you don’t mean to paint me as someone who wants to take children away from anything other than ideal parents (there wouldn’t be many children with parents at all if that happened!) and that is certainly not what I was saying.

 

     

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Intense Degree - 02 July 2013 04:47 AM

Naturally you would love them as any child would and I am not suggesting that homosexuals are somehow unable to love children either. The point I made was that, from my personal perspective, 2 loving parents of opposite sexes is the ideal and anything else, either single parent families, same sex parents or whatever else is second place.

I am also not saying that second place is worthless, merely not the ideal.

I’m sure you don’t mean to paint me as someone who wants to take children away from anything other than ideal parents (there wouldn’t be many children with parents at all if that happened!) and that is certainly not what I was saying.

I’m not even sure it is so ideal, really, but I understand the point. (For what I’ve heard and read about the issue, the kids with same sex parents seem to actually be slightly happier and more succesful, which probably doesn’t have so much to do with the parent’s sex than the fact that in current times these people probably are rather open minded and commited to their relationship compared to average heterosexual partners.) It’s still quite debatable is that point really worth presenting, as it rises the question: “so what do we do about it?”.

I certainly didn’t mean you would be taking kids away from parents deemed unfit for some vague reasons but merely tried to demonstrate how unimportant a factor like gender is in raising kids.

To me it seems that voicing the “ideality of opposite sex parents” in threads where people discuss gay rights is a bit like when someone said to someone else that “ideally you should be thinner but of course you are okay like that too”. It’s not really something you should say unless directly asked. On the field of science all these politically or socially awkward issues can still be researched assuming that the people involved are following the scientific objectivity.

     

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millenia - 02 July 2013 08:39 AM

It’s not really something you should say unless directly asked.

I’m not sure that I understand what you mean by that. If you mean that I cannot have or voice my own opinions then I will have to respectfully disagree. I’m not sure who would ask anyway or, if someone did, why that would make any difference?

If you mean that my view appears offensive to homosexuals then I would simply say that I am not saying that all heterosexual marriages are perfect and all homosexual ones bad - far from it as heterosexual marriages break down all the time - merely that (in my opinion) the ideal is that children should have a male and female role model as parents and therefore the issue of their sexuality is really something else.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am also not saying that homosexual marriages or unions or parents (or whatever) mean that any children adopted by them would be homosexual themselves.

     

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millenia - 02 July 2013 08:39 AM

To me it seems that voicing the “ideality of opposite sex parents” in threads where people discuss gay rights is a bit like when someone said to someone else that “ideally you should be thinner but of course you are okay like that too”. It’s not really something you should say unless directly asked.

Come on.  Intense brought up an interesting point totally related to the topic in a very respectable manner…..but to speak only if asked???  We are not living in the Dark Ages anymore.

     
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Quite apart from the debate about “ideal” parents (which I think is dubious at best), I would point out that this is NOT a gay marriage issue. In fact, since gay couples obviously can’t have children of their own—without help, of course—it’s entirely a non-factor.

Now, you could say that’s just transferring the gay rights issue from one area to another, but it really isn’t. Child-rearing is a whole different matter. Not just any straight couple is allowed to adopt, so it’s not an issue of discrimination. There are standards of quality expected in the home, and that should apply to straight and gay couples alike.

I have no idea what the laws for scientific procedures like IVF are like, but whatever they are, to the best of my knowledge they aren’t tied to marriage. Don’t need to be married to have a kid.

     

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True—plenty of non-married people (gay or straight) have adopted kids.  I don’t believe it’s legal (for gays) in every state, but it’s always been less of an issue than “gay marriage.”  People just like to bring it up because they’re stretching for reasons to be against “gay marriage.”

     
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Bonsai - 02 July 2013 10:44 AM
millenia - 02 July 2013 08:39 AM

To me it seems that voicing the “ideality of opposite sex parents” in threads where people discuss gay rights is a bit like when someone said to someone else that “ideally you should be thinner but of course you are okay like that too”. It’s not really something you should say unless directly asked.

Come on.  Intense brought up an interesting point totally related to the topic in a very respectable manner…..but to speak only if asked???  We are not living in the Dark Ages anymore.

Intense Degree - 02 July 2013 09:38 AM

I’m not sure that I understand what you mean by that. If you mean that I cannot have or voice my own opinions then I will have to respectfully disagree. I’m not sure who would ask anyway or, if someone did, why that would make any difference?

I’m sorry, I did not mean it to be directed as a criticism towards Intense as he rather just explained Gabe’s view. I think the way Gabe brought it up in this discussion is not a relevant or working argument. Overall, quite rarely it is very productive to point out what is “the most ideal” situation.

I really didn’t mean to say one couldn’t voice their opinion, just saying that quite often if you do point out that something isn’t ideal, you’re not being polite (even if you don’t mean to say that everyone should try to be ideal). Saying this inadvertently hints that “the others” are inferior somehow.

So one should think is saying it really relevant. In my opinion this homosexuals raising kids issue wasn’t, as marriage and kids are not 100% tied together. If people were really just pondering what they’d think would be the “perfect family”, it would certainly be much more relevant and not really insulting to anyone to describe your view. I agree with Lambonius that bringing up the parenting issue is more of an excuse to be anti-gay marriage.

     

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Also, to be fair—Gabe’s post that spawned this whole discussion is awkwardly worded enough that it’s pretty darn ambiguous whether he was talking about children’s relationship with their parents or children’s future sexual relationships.  Smile  Neither interpretation makes much of a case against marriage equality, though.

     
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@Millenia

Hey, no need to apologise, we’re all friends here! Laughing

     

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