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1st Person Adventure Games using spells cleverly to pass obstacles and escape peril

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Looking for a good 1st person adventure game that has you using pretty broad spells in clever ways to pass obstacles, defeat enemies, escape danger, etc. Preferably something where the spell function is basic but you can apply it in many different and clever ways.

Appreciate any help.

     
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I’m immediately reminded of Death Gate, a classic where you have to use magic in a variety of clever ways, alongside more traditional adventure gameplay. Unfortunately, it’s not as easy to find (or run, probably) anymore after being pulled from GOG. Also, it’s old and while it’s 1st person it’s not 3D, should those things matter to you.
Can’t think of any other one though. 1st-person 3D puzzlers tend to turn to sci-fi for these things.

     

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There is also the Spellcasting series. I don’t know how deeply you want to look into text adventures, which are technically 1st person, but some Infocom games like the Enchanter series fit your description. And you’re probably already of Zork.

     
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Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 05:43 PM

There is also the Spellcasting series. I don’t know how deeply you want to look into text adventures, which are technically 1st person, but some Infocom games like the Enchanter series fit your description. And you’re probably already of Zork.

Minor detail: Text adventures are technically 2nd person.

     

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Yes, you’re right - that slipped my mind. In fact, isn’t Death Gate 2nd person as well? The narration is, since the protagonist is a “you” there, as described by the narrator.

Maybe we need to distinguish between first person perspective and first person narration. And in text adventures, the narration IS the only perspective.

     
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I don’t think Death Gate could be described as 2nd person since you perform actions in real time, they are not commented in the past tense like in classic IFs. The use of “you” is narration, same as in Sierra games. Although it was definitely influenced by IFs like all other games by Legend. And it’s also the first game that came to my mind, very smart use of spells and a delightful, well-written game in general.

Zork: Grand Inquisitor would be another great choice, the devs had a lot of fun with all those weird Zork spells and magic in general. And, similar to Death Gate, there is a whole new turn involving spells by the end.

Edit: There is also Ween: The Prophecy, a lesser known title from Coktel Vision of Gobliiins and Woodruff fame. It’s 1st person, it takes place in a fantasy world and most puzzles are magic-based, although instead of casting spells you mix magic potions and combine magic items most of the time, but the effect is pretty similar. Not an easy game to find though.

     

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Doom - 17 December 2020 09:15 PM

I don’t think Death Gate could be described as 2nd person since you perform actions in real time, they are not commented in the past tense like in classic IFs. The use of “you” is narration, same as in Sierra games. Although it was definitely influenced by IFs like all other games by Legend. And it’s also the first game that came to my mind, very smart use of spells and a delightful, well-written game in general.

Well the performing actions part is just moving the cursor around the screen, and could be equated with typing in the parser - all gameplay action is essentially 1st person, if you can even use the convention in that way, which I don’t think you can. In Death Gate the commentary is given in the past tense: e.g. “You cast the frost spell and the water freezes”. For visual perspective, it’s 1st person (because what would 2nd person visuals look like?)

Could you clarify the difference between narration and commentary? I’m not sure I see it.

     
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Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 09:55 PM

Could you clarify the difference between narration and commentary? I’m not sure I see it.

I’m not sure myself since I had little experience with IFs. From my understanding, in this sort of games both the game (commentator/narrator) AND the player distance themselves from the protagonist. Because we can’t see or hear anything and basically act as the character’s mind or central nervous system or, I don’t know, a God’s voice, not the character himself.

But then I believe what truly matters is not how the protagonist is treated by the game, but how much power the player has when interacting with the gameworld. There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension we finished recently is a good example. We are the silent protagonist and The Game/No Game makes endless remarks commenting our actions, but we are still in full control of the situation and play the game in 1st person. But at one point we have to navigate a helpless lemming-like character who could easily kill himself or run away from a monster or do whatever he has in mind, and this is when the game becomes 2nd person.

     

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Doom - 17 December 2020 09:15 PM

I don’t think Death Gate could be described as 2nd person since you perform actions in real time, they are not commented in the past tense like in classic IFs.

There maybe be a few exceptions but IF descriptions use the present tense, which is the same as performing actions in real time. 

The use of “you” is narration, same as in Sierra games.

Hm, don’t know about that. To be honest, I find the whole 2nd-person issue somewhat confusing. But take KQ3, one of the Sierra games I remember best. At the start, the game talks about Gwydion’s background in the third person. Why?? Then Manhannan appears, game still uses 3rd-person, until Gwydion starts moving. From that moment on it’s 2nd-person. You tell Gwydion what to do by typing commands and the game tells Gwydion what action he performs and what the results are. I don’t see any difference with text adventures. (That doesn’t mean I consider KQ3 or Death Gate text adventures.)

Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 09:55 PM

In Death Gate the commentary is given in the past tense: e.g. “You cast the frost spell and the water freezes”.

That’s present tense. Like all descriptions in Death Gate.

For visual perspective, it’s 1st person (because what would 2nd person visuals look like?)

Seeing the protagonist through someone else’s eyes? I can’t think of any examples.

Doom - 17 December 2020 10:36 PM

But then I believe what truly matters is not how the protagonist is treated by the game, but how much power the player has when interacting with the gameworld. There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension we finished recently is a good example. We are the silent protagonist and The Game/No Game makes endless remarks commenting our actions, but we are still in full control of the situation and play the game in 1st person. But at one point we have to navigate a helpless lemming-like character who could easily kill himself or run away from a monster or do whatever he has in mind, and this is when the game becomes 2nd person.

I’m still confused. Frown All we do is get obstacles out of his way etc. We never control this character directly. Same thing in the second chapter with Holmes and Watson. Are you saying that is the reason the perspective is 2nd-person?

     

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Wow my thread sure went off the rails! haha Any other suggestions for what I’m looking for?

     
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hunter1979 - 18 December 2020 10:30 AM

Wow my thread sure went off the rails! haha Any other suggestions for what I’m looking for?

Tsk…tsk…
How about telling us first what you think of the suggestions you already got?

EDIT: I notice you haven’t responded to a similar thread you started on reddit either. And apparently you have two accounts here at AG.

     

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Karlok - 18 December 2020 10:24 AM
Doom - 17 December 2020 09:15 PM

I don’t think Death Gate could be described as 2nd person since you perform actions in real time, they are not commented in the past tense like in classic IFs.

There maybe be a few exceptions but IF descriptions use the present tense, which is the same as performing actions in real time.

Actually quite a few text games switch tense immediately after a command was given. For instance:
> GET ROCK
You pick up a rock. It’s now in your inventory.
> THROW ROCK
You threw a rock. That didn’t establish much.

In the same fashion they may change the person they are addressing. For instance, LOOK AROUND usually provides a description that tells what “you” (as the protagonist) see, but all those dialogues that are mocking the player after the protagonist has died use “you” to refer to the player.

In any case, in text games, and other games as well, the player becomes the protagonist, so trying to make any difference there is kind of unnecessary and meaningless, unless it’s some study about game language or something.

Karlok - 18 December 2020 10:24 AM
Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 09:55 PM

In Death Gate the commentary is given in the past tense: e.g. “You cast the frost spell and the water freezes”.

That’s present tense. Like all descriptions in Death Gate.

Actually “cast” can be either present or past tense, without any other context it’s impossible to tell which it is. If you have played the game and are sure about it being present tense, then OK, can’t argue with that, but from the example given here, it can be both.

Linguistically, it would more likely be past tense though. If both “cast” and “freezes” are present tense, then they are just two things happening simultaneously. If “cast”, however, is past tense, it’s the cause for the water presently freezing.

hunter1979 - 18 December 2020 10:30 AM

Wow my thread sure went off the rails! haha Any other suggestions for what I’m looking for?

The OP’s question is exemplary in being very precise. That’s on the other hand also the reason why there are very few answers. You are looking for the kind of game that really doesn’t exist in large quantities. Maybe there are some individual first person adventure games with spell-casting and enemies, but very few and nothing that would immediately come to mind.

I can only recommend that perhaps you should try searching RPG games, where there is probably a larger number of games with spells and all that, of course at the cost of fewer puzzles.

     
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Karlok - 18 December 2020 10:24 AM

Hm, don’t know about that. To be honest, I find the whole 2nd-person issue somewhat confusing.

What I meant is that IFs use narration as commentary since we play blind and this is the only way to describe the world around us and the consequences of our actions. We first tell the game what the character should do, the game then tells us what happens, like in a turn-based gameplay. Sierra’s games are “real-life” in comparison and narrator is more like a travel companion who guides us through the visualised world, but he doesn’t have any real control over the fate of our protagonist. I think they even tried to evolve narrator into a real companion in King’s Quest 5 (Cedric), but something went terribly wrong.

But those are just my thoughts, I never actually looked at text adventures this way. Somehow I was always sure that 2nd person = indirect control, and Lemmings/RTS games came as prime examples. I guess the Sherlock Holmes part in There Is No Game also counts (the characters just don’t do much on their own). There was also this experimental adventure called The Experiment where we guided a woman through a sinking ship from an operations room using only cameras and switches while the girl performed the rest of actions by herself. This is pretty much how I imagined it.

     

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GateKeeper - 18 December 2020 11:47 AM
Karlok - 18 December 2020 10:24 AM

There maybe be a few exceptions but IF descriptions use the present tense, which is the same as performing actions in real time.

Actually quite a few text games switch tense immediately after a command was given.

Quite a few? No way!

For instance:
> GET ROCK
You pick up a rock. It’s now in your inventory.
> THROW ROCK
You threw a rock. That didn’t establish much.

This looks weird. Did you make that up to illustrate your point or did you get it from a real text adventure?

In the same fashion they may change the person they are addressing. For instance, LOOK AROUND usually provides a description that tells what “you” (as the protagonist) see, but all those dialogues that are mocking the player after the protagonist has died use “you” to refer to the player.

I get the impression you’re referring to Sierra games again. I’ve said it several times before, in other threads as well, but I want it to be crystal clear: I don’t regard a game where you have direct control over a little avatar and make it walk across screens as a text adventure. That’s a graphical adventure with or without text input. And I’m certainly not the only one. But even if you do consider such games IF, they are a subgenre with an extremely limited parser.

In any case, in text games, and other games as well, the player becomes the protagonist, so trying to make any difference there is kind of unnecessary and meaningless, unless it’s some study about game language or something.

Unlike you, I find the distinction interesting. In many games (not just IF) there’s a considerable knowledge gap between protagonist and player. Finding out what exactly the protagonist knows may be an intricate part of the game.

GateKeeper - 18 December 2020 11:47 AM
Karlok - 18 December 2020 10:24 AM
Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 09:55 PM

In Death Gate the commentary is given in the past tense: e.g. “You cast the frost spell and the water freezes”.

That’s present tense. Like all descriptions in Death Gate.

Actually “cast” can be either present or past tense, without any other context it’s impossible to tell which it is. If you have played the game and are sure about it being present tense, then OK, can’t argue with that, but from the example given here, it can be both.

Shrug. Of course I’ve played Death Gate. And it would have been so easy for you to check the tense in Death Gate, but no, you’d rather doubt my statement.

Linguistically, it would more likely be past tense though. If both “cast” and “freezes” are present tense, then they are just two things happening simultaneously. If “cast”, however, is past tense, it’s the cause for the water presently freezing.

LOL! That’s just plain nonsense, Mr Contrarian. He rings the bell and the door opens.

@Doom: I’m now less confused about what you meant.  Smile And The Experiment is an interesting game. I never finished it (bug + tedious gameplay) but your post reminded me that I want to watch it on youtube.

     

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Luhr28 - 17 December 2020 09:55 PM

In Death Gate the commentary is given in the past tense: e.g. “You cast the frost spell and the water freezes”.


Apologies if I’ve misplaced who quoted what but I needed to pick up on this.

In the above quote it’s specifically informative, in the present tense, and not the past tense.

What that sentence is saying is what happens when you cast the frost spell. I.E. do this and that happens (cast the spell and water freezes).

For it be past tense and grammatically correct it has to read:
You cast the frost spell and the water froze, I.E. you did this and that happened.

     

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Karlok - 19 December 2020 08:14 AM
GateKeeper - 18 December 2020 11:47 AM

For instance:
> GET ROCK
You pick up a rock. It’s now in your inventory.
> THROW ROCK
You threw a rock. That didn’t establish much.

This looks weird. Did you make that up to illustrate your point or did you get it from a real text adventure?

It is a made up example, based on real games though.

I can’t find a very good screenshot on such short notice, but I did manage to find two screenshots from a Commodore 64 game Drak where some (but not all!) actions provide a response in past tense.

I guess those are enough to prove the point though.

Karlok - 19 December 2020 08:14 AM
GateKeeper - 18 December 2020 11:47 AM

In the same fashion they may change the person they are addressing. For instance, LOOK AROUND usually provides a description that tells what “you” (as the protagonist) see, but all those dialogues that are mocking the player after the protagonist has died use “you” to refer to the player.

I get the impression you’re referring to Sierra games again. I’ve said it several times before, in other threads as well, but I want it to be crystal clear: I don’t regard a game where you have direct control over a little avatar and make it walk across screens as a text adventure. That’s a graphical adventure with or without text input. And I’m certainly not the only one. But even if you do consider such games IF, they are a subgenre with an extremely limited parser.

I’m not referring to Sierra games specifically, but they certainly fit in. I honestly can’t see much difference in whether there is some kind of graphics or not, as all the input and output, not counting character movement, happens through a parser.

But let’s look at this screenshot from a Commodore 64 game Zim Sala Bim. The game keeps telling where “you” are, but then describing what “I” see, so is the game using both “you” and “I” to refer to the protagonist, or is one of those supposed to be the player, separate from the protagonist?

Or is the parser talking to the protagonist, and the player is just eavesdropping?

 

Karlok - 19 December 2020 08:14 AM
GateKeeper - 18 December 2020 11:47 AM

Linguistically, it would more likely be past tense though. If both “cast” and “freezes” are present tense, then they are just two things happening simultaneously. If “cast”, however, is past tense, it’s the cause for the water presently freezing.

LOL! That’s just plain nonsense, Mr Contrarian. He rings the bell and the door opens.

Jabod - 19 December 2020 08:29 AM

In the above quote it’s specifically informative, in the present tense, and not the past tense.

What that sentence is saying is what happens when you cast the frost spell. I.E. do this and that happens (cast the spell and water freezes).

For it be past tense and grammatically correct it has to read:
You cast the frost spell and the water froze, I.E. you did this and that happened.

OK, guys, replace the words with different ones and change the context.

“You push a button and a door opens.”
“You pushed a button and a door opens.”

Both are quite possible. I could give you real life examples of both kinds of doors.
In a shopping mall where I often go, you first need to push a button and then wait a few seconds for the door to open.
And there’s a ship that I often travel aboard, and the door to sundeck has a button that needs to be pushed for five seconds before the compressed air even begins to flow in the door mechanism.

So which is the correct tense depends on what kind of mechanism we are talking about, and at what point of the sequence the narrative is at. Immediately with the next action, or taking a larger view at things.

With spells it’s a bit debatable because we are talking about things that don’t exist (to most people anyway…), but based on everything that stage magic and fantasy entertainment has shown us, you first need to cast a spell, and whatever reaction follows comes afterwards.

So if the narrative is with the next action, and the magic is supposed to work that way, then cast could very well be past tense, and the action that follows present tense.

Of course by Karlok’s statement we now know that it’s all present tense, but without any knowledge about the context both versions seem possible, and based on my interpretation about magical powers, the past tense would seem more logical. Because that’s not the case here, I guess it’s meaningless to discuss that further, but other situations like the door examples should be worth noting regardless.

     

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