• Log In | Sign Up

  • News
  • Reviews
  • Games Database
  • Game Discovery
  • Search
  • New Releases
  • Forums
continue reading below

Adventure Gamers - Forums

Welcome to Adventure Gamers. Please Sign In or Join Now to post.

You are here: HomeForum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread

Post Marker Legend:

  • New Topic New posts
  • Old Topic No new posts

Currently online

Support us, by purchasing through these affiliate links

   

Devs/Sequels jump to a modern outlook

Avatar

Total Posts: 8207

Joined 2012-01-02

PM

The intense dialogue between tomimt and diego at the last thread made come up with this.

The late 80s and early 90s Sierra jumping every 2-3 years to present some different presentation and mechanics was a must at these times due to the constant system and multimedia upgrades, even inventions, (not go thru how Sierra had a big hand at these upgrades) but today its a choice, Broken Sword can go back to the roots and step down from 3D presentation, or The longest Journey can keep the jump and push the envelope.

Tho Sierra had maintained this upgrade it always kept the essence of previous presentations, anyhow i am not a big fan changes, i expect sequels to maintain what made the original successful, but again that cant involves the 26 years later; Beyond A Steel Sky, it looked a must and i am loving everything i am seeing so far, can’t wait to give it go. what anyway was the best/worst jumps from a certain Developer, or for a certain title you can think of?

 

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 5026

Joined 2012-03-24

PM

Four games that immediately sprung to mind for me are Broken Sword 3, Dreamfall, Monkey Island 4 & Clocktower 3.

In the case of the first 3 games mentioned I can understand why the developers might want to produce a game to cater for the console market & it seems to be that they managed to keep some continuity with the adventure gaming roots in each albeit that they included a little more ‘action’ than AG players might want/expect.

In the case of Clocktower, an interesting game (the first one for PS) that’s more puzzle orientated than action (in my mind), but non-the-less described as hybrid-action, the third offering was an all out action-fest with bosses etc that really didn’t reflect the moody atmosphere & clever structure of the first game (by that I mean the one featured here as I’m aware that there seems to be two versions). So the ‘modern outlook’ for that game didn’t work for me.

Has anyone played Outcry?

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 8127

Joined 2011-10-21

PM

Best jumps: Gabriel Knight - 3 games, all 3 using very different technology (from classic 3rd person graphics to FMV to 3D), yet all consistently praised.

Worst jump: Simon the Sorcerer 3D - originally planned with normal animation, the overall jump to 3D made them make the switch as well, but production troubles lead to the game looking horribly outdated on release and very buggy. I never finished it because of a game-breaking bug relatively early on. Which is a crying shame, because the story and jokes were as good as in the first two games…

     

Last played: Oknytt (CPT) - 2.5/5 | Horizon: Zero Dawn - 4/5 | Marvel’s Spider-Man - 4.5/5 | Freddi Fish 3: The Case of the Stolen Conch Shell - 3/5 | There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension (CPT) - 4/5 | There Is No Game (replay) - 4/5 | Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars (replay) - 3/5 | Lighthouse: The Dark Being (CPT) - 2.5/5 | Anna’s Quest (CPT) - 4.5/5 | Simon the Sorcerer II: The Lion, the Wizard and the Wardrobe - 4/5 | Florence - 4/5 | Alice Trapped in Wonderland - 1/5 | The Hunt for the Lost Ship - 1.5/5 | The Talos Principle - 4/5 | Tex Murphy: Martian Memorandum - 3/5 | Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc - 3/5 | Simon the Sorcerer (replay) - 4/5 | Portal 2 - 4/5 | Murder By Numbers - 3.5/5 | Heavy Rain - 3.5/5 | Disco Elysium - 4.5/5

Avatar

Total Posts: 491

Joined 2017-12-19

PM

Advie - 18 July 2020 06:39 AM

Tho Sierra had maintained this upgrade it always kept the essence of previous presentations

They sure made changes, like with King’s Quest.

It can be debated how much they kept and how much they let go, and whether it was just technology allowing them to do new things, or their desire to change things.

Obviously, there’s a certain fantasy feeling in all of them. But if we have a couple versions of pixel art protagonist, which is followed by a cartoon protagonist, which in turn is followed by a 3D character, add in how the protagonist gender was different in different games, how much of the original King’s Quest was left in the last games of the series? And whatever remained, was that the “essence” of the whole thing? Or did they lose it?

They did the same thing with other game series too, like Gabriel Knight going from pixel art to FMV to 3D, with a couple of different voice actors.

And of course we all know the story of Monkey Island, although they kept the same protagonist, antagonist, and other stuff the same only looking very different every time.

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 6078

Joined 2007-07-22

PM

The history thought us that switching from 2D to 3D rarely brought big success to the series in an adventure genre, though there has been exceptions, like Dreamfall (and Gabriel Knight/Broken Sword 3, to an extent).

Switching from 2D to FMV has only been done in few occasions as I’m aware of - Gabriel Knight 2 (great decision at that time, even with a second-rate actors) and from Martian Memorandum to Under a Killing Moon, again with a full success.

Broken Sword 5 is quite interesting, as the series made a full circle before coming back to its roots. Now, classic 3rd-person point&click; is something that brings unprecedented joy to those who love adventure games, as we’re connected to it through all those classics that made the genre popular - without any timed elements and the need to tap your keyboard - just relaxing in your chair and progressing through a game at your own leisure with mouse clicks. It’s not easy to overcome this comfort by switching to something different, when it comes to presentation (just ask Simon the Sorcerer 3D).

Anyway, all in all I think that Gabriel Knight and Broken Sword series are the best examples of following the trend while maintaining the level of quality throughout the series. As for the worst example… a lot of them, but let’s mention Silence: The Whispered World 2, which totally unnecessary IMO switched to 3D from an instant-classic and brilliantly painted original, which brought a new hope to 2D hand-drawn games.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

Avatar

Total Posts: 491

Joined 2017-12-19

PM

diego - 18 July 2020 07:52 AM

The history thought us that switching from 2D to 3D rarely brought big success to the series in an adventure genre, though there has been exceptions, like Dreamfall (and Gabriel Knight/Broken Sword 3, to an extent).

The Longest Journey wasn’t 2D though, it was 2.5D, which is why it’s part of ResidualVM and not ScummVM, so the change wasn’t so dramatic there.

diego - 18 July 2020 07:52 AM

Switching from 2D to FMV has only been done in few occasions as I’m aware of - Gabriel Knight 2 (great decision at that time, even with a second-rate actors) and from Martian Memorandum to Under a Killing Moon, again with a full success.

That depends on how you define series. There are some who consider games of certain subject matter to be part of the same series, even if they are by different developers who are not at all related.

In that case we have games like Sherlock Holmes and Star Trek, which not only went from 2D to FMV, but also went from text only to graphics.
In the latter category we have many other series as well, like Zork, and Leather Goddesses of Phobos. And Leisure Suit Larry, of course.

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 6078

Joined 2007-07-22

PM

GateKeeper - 18 July 2020 08:06 AM

The Longest Journey wasn’t 2D though, it was 2.5D, which is why it’s part of ResidualVM and not ScummVM, so the change wasn’t so dramatic there.

I don’t know, Dreamfall from The Longest Journey… huge change IMO. Not only the world was in full 3D, opposed to “2.5D” (which in reality is 2D backgrounds, pre-rendered in the case of The Longest Journey and not hand-painted, with a 3D characters and illusion of screen depth, but all classic 2D games have that illusion as well) but there’s also a direct control for the main characters. Totally different animals the two games, if you ask me.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

Avatar

Total Posts: 8127

Joined 2011-10-21

PM

I’d argue that the change in the Tex Murphy series wasn’t that big of a stretch either. Mean Streets and Martian Memorandum were already going for digitized voices and video, so once storage capacity expanded with CD-ROMs, they just took their next logical step.

     

Last played: Oknytt (CPT) - 2.5/5 | Horizon: Zero Dawn - 4/5 | Marvel’s Spider-Man - 4.5/5 | Freddi Fish 3: The Case of the Stolen Conch Shell - 3/5 | There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension (CPT) - 4/5 | There Is No Game (replay) - 4/5 | Broken Sword: The Shadow of the Templars (replay) - 3/5 | Lighthouse: The Dark Being (CPT) - 2.5/5 | Anna’s Quest (CPT) - 4.5/5 | Simon the Sorcerer II: The Lion, the Wizard and the Wardrobe - 4/5 | Florence - 4/5 | Alice Trapped in Wonderland - 1/5 | The Hunt for the Lost Ship - 1.5/5 | The Talos Principle - 4/5 | Tex Murphy: Martian Memorandum - 3/5 | Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc - 3/5 | Simon the Sorcerer (replay) - 4/5 | Portal 2 - 4/5 | Murder By Numbers - 3.5/5 | Heavy Rain - 3.5/5 | Disco Elysium - 4.5/5

Avatar

Total Posts: 5026

Joined 2012-03-24

PM

TimovieMan - 18 July 2020 07:39 AM

Best jumps: Gabriel Knight - 3 games, all 3 using very different technology (from classic 3rd person graphics to FMV to 3D), yet all consistently praised.

I loved each & every game for the in-depth story, engaging characters & puzzling but I truly couldn’t get on with a replay recently of GK3 as I found it too whizzy (which I experienced the first time but persisted) but no…not again!

It has been said that AG developers ended up appealing to nobody on trying to go the ‘console’ route?

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 851

Joined 2017-09-18

PM

GateKeeper - 18 July 2020 08:06 AM
diego - 18 July 2020 07:52 AM

Switching from 2D to FMV has only been done in few occasions as I’m aware of - Gabriel Knight 2 (great decision at that time, even with a second-rate actors) and from Martian Memorandum to Under a Killing Moon, again with a full success.

That depends on how you define series. There are some who consider games of certain subject matter to be part of the same series, even if they are by different developers who are not at all related.

In that case we have games like Sherlock Holmes and Star Trek, which not only went from 2D to FMV, but also went from text only to graphics.
In the latter category we have many other series as well, like Zork, and Leather Goddesses of Phobos. And Leisure Suit Larry, of course.

Are those “full” motion video, though? There’s also something like Police Quest IV, which used video for all characters, but a lot of animations are left out and they don’t move when talking. I think A Final Unity was similar and perhaps the Sherlock Holmes games too.

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 8207

Joined 2012-01-02

PM

GateKeeper - 18 July 2020 07:41 AM
Advie - 18 July 2020 06:39 AM

Tho Sierra had maintained this upgrade it always kept the essence of previous presentations

They sure made changes, like with King’s Quest.

It can be debated how much they kept and how much they let go, and whether it was just technology allowing them to do new things, or their desire to change things.

Obviously, there’s a certain fantasy feeling in all of them. But if we have a couple versions of pixel art protagonist, which is followed by a cartoon protagonist, which in turn is followed by a 3D character, add in how the protagonist gender was different in different games, how much of the original King’s Quest was left in the last games of the series? And whatever remained, was that the “essence” of the whole thing? Or did they lose it?

 

Thank you for posting these images, and if we conclude the controversial KQ8, the essence is there; the feel of being lost in the wilderness or the desert, the mystical creatures you meet, and the danger in every step (expect KQVI) and don’t put any blame on the cartoonish Disney presentation; come on, no one at these time can say no to that, it is like when Real or Barcelona call out for a certain player no one can no.

so the first 5 had the same essence, no doubt about that, the 6th is very different (and ahead of its time) and we all know why the 7th demiss was not for the outlook, but for the tidiness it has that didnt not go with the presentation at all, it felt like a horror adventure ina Disney disguise they needed to change a lot of the KQ trademarks design to go with that outlook, but these times the ‘suits’ were already filling all the Washington headquarters, i think they have had left their soul at Oakhurst.

so to your question there essence was there, most of all.

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 491

Joined 2017-12-19

PM

Luhr28 - 18 July 2020 08:49 AM
GateKeeper - 18 July 2020 08:06 AM

In that case we have games like Sherlock Holmes and Star Trek, which not only went from 2D to FMV, but also went from text only to graphics.

Are those “full” motion video, though? There’s also something like Police Quest IV, which used video for all characters, but a lot of animations are left out and they don’t move when talking. I think A Final Unity was similar and perhaps the Sherlock Holmes games too.

As full as full can be. I’m not talking about A Final Unity, that had no FMV at all. But if you check out Star Trek: Klingon and Star Trek: Borg from Simon & Schuster Interactive, they have some of the real Star Trek actors in them. Klingon was directed by Jonathan Frakes, and Borg was even shot at the set of Star Trek: First Contact and had John de Lancie in it. Can’t get much more real or full than that!

As far as Sherlock Holmes goes, check out Consulting Detective series from Zojoi, it was all FMV.

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 6078

Joined 2007-07-22

PM

GateKeeper - 18 July 2020 08:06 AM

That depends on how you define series. There are some who consider games of certain subject matter to be part of the same series, even if they are by different developers who are not at all related.

I would never consider games that share the same theme to be “part of a series” if they’re done in an unrelated manner which means couple of things - not by the same developer; and not the “spiritual successor” (which is obvious if the license goes to the different developer, like Sam&Max; by Telltale after Lucas Arts). In that sense, I don’t see all Sherlock Holmes games to be part of the same series. I can only consider The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes games (“The Case of the Serrated Scalpel” and “The Rose Tattoo”) part of the same series, and Frogwares’ Sherlock Holmes series as something different.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

Avatar

Total Posts: 491

Joined 2017-12-19

PM

diego - 18 July 2020 09:10 AM

I would never consider games that share the same theme to be “part of a series” if they’re done in an unrelated manner which means couple of things - not by the same developer; and not the “spiritual successor” (which is obvious if the license goes to the different developer, like Sam&Max; by Telltale after Lucas Arts). In that sense, I don’t see all Sherlock Holmes games to be part of the same series. I can only consider The Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes games (“The Case of the Serrated Scalpel” and “The Rose Tattoo”) part of the same series, and Frogwares’ Sherlock Holmes series as something different.

Yeah, but then the question becomes, by what criteria is something part of a series, and something else is not? It is much easier to accept everything to be in the same continuum than trying to somehow make a meaningful distinction there.


So here’s a nice question to you and everyone else too. Which of the following games are part of the same series, and which are not:

Softporn Adventure
Las Vegas
Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards
Leisure Suit Larry Goes Looking for Love (In Several Wrong Places)
Leisure Suit Larry III: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating Pectorals
Leisure Suit Larry 1: In the Land of the Lounge Lizards
Leisure Suit Larry 5: Passionate Patti Does a Little Undercover Work
Leisure Suit Larry 6: Shape Up or Slip Out!
Leisure Suit Larry: Love for Sail!
Leisure Suit Larry’s Casino
Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click
Leisure Suit Larry: Magna Cum Laude
Leisure Suit Larry: Box Office Bust
Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded
Larry and the Long Look for a Luscious Lover
Leisure Suit Larry: Wet Dreams Don’t Dry


That’s a collection of games which are all somehow related, but which form a series? We have original games, we have remakes, we have second, third, fourth time remakes of the same game, we have fan remakes which are faithful to the originals, we have completely detached spin-offs, we have adventures, we have text games, we have point and clicks, we have games from four different decades, we have games from three different continents, Al Lowe in charge, Al Lowe as a hired hand, Al Lowe making a remake, Al Lowe doing something original, no Al Lowe at all, Sierra, no Sierra, etc.

So, how does everyone form a series out of those?  Laughing

     
Avatar

Total Posts: 6078

Joined 2007-07-22

PM

Leisure Suit Larry “series” (wait for it) is a very, very unique in the historic sense, not only in an adventure genre but in general. I’m sure you’ll be hard pressed to find something similar in gaming history, with that much sequels, remakes, reboots and whatsnot. But to answer your question - I consider all those games to be part of the “Leisure Suit Larry” series, apart from Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click, Softporn Adventure and Las Vegas, with Leisure Suit Larry’s Casino acting as a spin-off. Apart from Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click, none of these games is a “fan-made” game (which I wouldn’t consider to be part of a series), and they’re all done with approve from the original creator - Sierra and Al Lowe, whose licence later switched to other companies, but that doesn’t change anything.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

Avatar

Total Posts: 491

Joined 2017-12-19

PM

diego - 18 July 2020 12:36 PM

Leisure Suit Larry “series” (wait for it) is a very, very unique in the historic sense, not only in an adventure genre but in general. I’m sure you’ll be hard pressed to find something similar in gaming history, with that much sequels, remakes, reboots and whatsnot.

Well at least in the adventure genre it is unique. In other genres there are some series, Castlevania and so on, but in the adventure world, it is kind of unique. Although if you count Tomb Raider as an adventure, it will probably catch up sooner rather than later.

There are also quite a few King’s Quests, as already discussed in this thread. Seven (or eight) games in the main series, remake of the first one, that recent reboot, a fan remake, etc. But it’s Sierra again, so let’s leave it be.

diego - 18 July 2020 12:36 PM

But to answer your question - I consider all those games to be part of the “Leisure Suit Larry” series, apart from Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click, Softporn Adventure and Las Vegas, with Leisure Suit Larry’s Casino acting as a spin-off.

OK. So you would include even those two Larry Lovage spin-offs, which have a different protagonist in a different genre made by different developers? Which almost everyone, including Al Lowe, hates?

Also, why are not Softporn Adventure and Las Vegas part of the series? Softporn Adventure has always been included in most official Leisure Suit Larry collections too? Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards was just the second remake of the same story.

diego - 18 July 2020 12:36 PM

Apart from Leisure Suit Larry 2 Point and Click, none of these games is a “fan-made” game (which I wouldn’t consider to be part of a series),

Larry and the Long Look for a Luscious Lover is a fan game.

diego - 18 July 2020 12:36 PM

and they’re all done with approve from the original creator - Sierra and Al Lowe, whose licence later switched to other companies, but that doesn’t change anything.

Al Lowe has never owned any licence for anything. He couldn’t even sell his own development floppy disks on eBay without some lawyers making him stop doing that.

Al Lowe had much to do with the creation of the character Leisure Suit Larry, but like said, otherwise he was simply making a remake of someone else’s game.

When Al Lowe worked with Larry for the last time, making the remake-remake-remake-remake version Reloaded, everything was owned by Codemasters, Paul Trowe and his company negotiated a licence for a remake, and Al Lowe was just a paid designer. Like he has always been.

And while Al Lowe is not the original creator, he has never approved those Larry Lovage spin-offs, if that counts for anything. Not sure what he thinks about the most recent German game.

     

You are here: HomeForum Home → Gaming → Adventure → Thread

Welcome to the Adventure Gamers forums!

Back to the top