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Beyond a Steel Sky (Beneath a Steel Sky sequel)

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GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

Simon the Sorcerer series: 3D completely ruined everything, which is a shame as the writing in the third game was actually better than in previous games.

The delays (and therefore outdated graphics) were one thing, but the bugs that rendered it unplayable were the main point of ruin. Not necessarily the fact that they went for 3D.

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

So I am still waiting for an example of a successful transition from 2D to 3D…

Gabriel Knight 3.
That series went from 2D to FMV to 3D and lost none of its quality in the process.



As for Beyond a Steal Sky: wait and see.
Give them a chance to reach for the stars. Who knows what the end result will be?

     

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GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 04:40 AM

Has there ever been an adventure series that went from 2D to 3D without losing its appeal and playability considerably? I can’t think of any.

Gabriel Knight, the third part was just as good as the first two, if not better (personally I rate it slightly higher than the first game). And a lot of people seem to like Dreamfall + chapters (haven’t played it). Either way, the BASS trailer looks adventure enough to me, and I see nothing wrong with a sandbox world as long as there are enough things to do. Actually I recall that many years ago when Revolution was still a big company and BASS 2 was announced (or hinted at) along with another action/adventure franchise, something similar was promised: a fully 3D open world, so it’s not like they suddenly decided to reach new audiences. And I think Cecil learned on his past mistakes (Broken Sword 3).

TimovieMan - 26 March 2019 06:23 AM

Gabriel Knight 3.
That series went from 2D to FMV to 3D and lost none of its quality in the process.

Beat me to it!

     

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GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

The question is not whether a game can work or not in 3D, of course there are great 3D games, it’s how well the transition from 2D to 3D works in an already established game universe. Generally speaking, very badly.

I completely disagree and gave examples to the contrary. Any 3D adventure game with similar mechanics can prove that the formula works in 3D. Generally speaking, outside of the awkward late 90 ~ early 00’s phase, where the genre was waning generally, the 3D games haven’t sacrificed playability.

Transitioning the “established game universe” is an aesthetic & narrative challenge that’s not limited to adventure games and is separate from the question of 3D playability.

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

King’s Quest series: it was horrible, and why the reboot was somewhat well accepted was because people thought it wasn’t as bad as Mask of Eternity was.

Completely disagree. That was a great game overall and was mechanically solid. The few problems it did have didn’t stem from it being 3D in the slightest. Also despite you not liking it the consensus among fans overwhelmingly positive.

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

Sherlock Holmes kind of worked, but then again, if you are talking about Frogwares and not all Sherlock Holmes games ever, their first game The Mystery of the Mummy was 3D, so they went from 3D to 2D and from there back to 3D, so they are an exception to almost everything.

I’m talking about Sherlock Holmes adventure games.

The developer who was currently in charge of the franchise isn’t material when asking if a series successfully transitioned to 3D. The Odd Gentlemen’s KQ game still counts in this discussion and they obviously aren’t the original developers. Sherlock Holmes adventure games made the transition from 2D to 3D and it worked great.

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

Telltale Games do not count, as Sam and Max, Monkey Island, and everything else was not 3D, they were 2.5D from the very first games all the way until Jurassic Park when they really went to 3D and changed the gameplay from point and click to QTE.

No… they’re not. “2.5D” refers to games like Pandemonium or Klonoa with 3D graphics on a fixed 2D plane of motion. The TellTale adventure games are 3D. There’s full 3D movement with polygonal characters on a 3D plane. They just have fixed camera angles. Which many 3D games do. They are absolutely 3D adventure games.

 

     
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Are we still having the “3D killed adventure games” debate? I mean, ffs, Under a Killing Moon was twenty-five years ago…

As for BASS, I’m curious about it. Of all the games from the Kickstarter craze, BS5 was the one I backed with the least amount of enthusiasm, and it turned out to be the one I liked most. So I believe that Revolution can still make good things.

(As a matter of fact, how much I liked a game pretty much always ended up being inversely proportional to how excited I was for the Kickstarter. Clearly I’m shit at predicting how good games will turn out, which is why I’ve stopped trying to.)

     

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TimovieMan - 26 March 2019 06:23 AM
GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

So I am still waiting for an example of a successful transition from 2D to 3D…

Gabriel Knight 3.
That series went from 2D to FMV to 3D and lost none of its quality in the process.

OK, I guess that might count. It’s really the weakest in the series, but guess going from cuckoo clock to cat moustache wasn’t spoiled by that transition.

 

PlanetX - 26 March 2019 06:29 AM
GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

Sherlock Holmes kind of worked, but then again, if you are talking about Frogwares and not all Sherlock Holmes games ever, their first game The Mystery of the Mummy was 3D, so they went from 3D to 2D and from there back to 3D, so they are an exception to almost everything.

I’m talking about Sherlock Holmes adventure games.

The developer who was currently in charge of the franchise isn’t material when asking if a series successfully transitioned to 3D. The Odd Gentlemen’s KQ game still counts in this discussion and they obviously aren’t the original developers. Sherlock Holmes adventure games made the transition from 2D to 3D and it worked great.

OK, I guess that’s a fair point of view.
I personally would count those as separate game series, as there’s absolutely nothing to link them, except for the main character taken from books that were published in the late 1800’s.

While Roberta Williams wasn’t actively involved in the reboot, she at least had something to do with it.

PlanetX - 26 March 2019 06:29 AM
GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 05:45 AM

Telltale Games do not count, as Sam and Max, Monkey Island, and everything else was not 3D, they were 2.5D from the very first games all the way until Jurassic Park when they really went to 3D and changed the gameplay from point and click to QTE.

No… they’re not. “2.5D” refers to games like Pandemonium or Klonoa with 3D graphics on a fixed 2D plane of motion. The TellTale adventure games are 3D. There’s full 3D movement with polygonal characters on a 3D plane. They just have fixed camera angles. Which many 3D games do. They are absolutely 3D adventure games.

Nope. You are forgetting the whole definition of 2.5D.

From Wikipedia (emphasis added):
“The two-and-a-half-dimensional (2.5D, alternatively three-quarter and pseudo-3D) perspective is either 2D graphical projections and similar techniques used to cause images or scenes to simulate the appearance of being three-dimensional (3D) when in fact they are not, or gameplay in an otherwise three-dimensional video game that is restricted to a two-dimensional plane with a limited access to the third dimension.”

3D games mean that you can use to explore the third dimension, the very least case you can rotate the camera. Everything Telltale did before Jurassic Park had very limited character paths, in fact, you could just take some drawn 2D background and put it in there, and it would works just like the existing backgrounds do.

There’s zero 3D movement in those games, or if you count those as 3D games, then you should count everything that Sierra On-line ever did too. They did advertise their games as 3D adventures at some point, because there was some sense of depth, like character scaling, but other than those sales texts, they were clearly 2D, just like Telltale games before Jurassic Park were.

     
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GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 07:55 AM

Nope. You are forgetting the whole definition of 2.5D.

From Wikipedia (emphasis added):
“The two-and-a-half-dimensional (2.5D, alternatively three-quarter and pseudo-3D) perspective is either 2D graphical projections and similar techniques used to cause images or scenes to simulate the appearance of being three-dimensional (3D) when in fact they are not, or gameplay in an otherwise three-dimensional video game that is restricted to a two-dimensional plane with a limited access to the third dimension.”

That article is talking about early faux 3D techniques like isometric tile based games. That’s not the same thing at all.

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 07:55 AM

3D games mean that you can use to explore the third dimension, the very least case you can rotate the camera. Everything Telltale did before Jurassic Park had very limited character paths, in fact, you could just take some drawn 2D background and put it in there, and it would works just like the existing backgrounds do.

No that’s not true. 3D games don’t require that you be able to rotate the camera. There’s countless 3D games with fixed camera systems. In fact, even the later TTG games don’t allow you to rotate the camera. They didn’t add that until Walking Dead 4. The early telltale games have 3D, movement within a 3D game engine, with polygonal characters in a 3D space. They’re 3D games. Compact level design does not preclude them from being 3D games. That isn’t what defines “2.5D”

Also that’s not consistently true of all game maps in their games. Some maps are compact, some are bigger than others. Like the Hill Valley map in their Back To The Future game. Regardless, they’re all clearly in 3D and have full 3D movement. It’s not even debatable.

Look at the footage, are you denying this is a 3D game?

GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 07:55 AM

There’s zero 3D movement in those games, or if you count those as 3D games, then you should count everything that Sierra On-line ever did too. They did advertise their games as 3D adventures at some point, because there was some sense of depth, like character scaling, but other than those sales texts, they were clearly 2D, just like Telltale games before Jurassic Park were.

No, you’re comparing a 2D game engine with visual techniques to simulate depth to a 3D game engine where the characters have the full range of motion on a 3D plane in a polygonal environment.

Just because the level design was tighter doesn’t mean it isn’t a 3D game. Plus like I showed before, that’s not universally true of each area. You’re really reaching here.

     
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PlanetX - 26 March 2019 08:40 AM
GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 07:55 AM

Nope. You are forgetting the whole definition of 2.5D.

From Wikipedia (emphasis added):
“The two-and-a-half-dimensional (2.5D, alternatively three-quarter and pseudo-3D) perspective is either 2D graphical projections and similar techniques used to cause images or scenes to simulate the appearance of being three-dimensional (3D) when in fact they are not, or gameplay in an otherwise three-dimensional video game that is restricted to a two-dimensional plane with a limited access to the third dimension.”

That article is talking about early faux 3D techniques like isometric tile based games. That’s not the same thing at all.

The article is talking about 2.5D in general, where isometric techniques are one thing for sure, but completely 3D modelled games locked into 2D movement are another. It’s all collectively known as 2.5D.

PlanetX - 26 March 2019 08:40 AM
GateKeeper - 26 March 2019 07:55 AM

3D games mean that you can use to explore the third dimension, the very least case you can rotate the camera. Everything Telltale did before Jurassic Park had very limited character paths, in fact, you could just take some drawn 2D background and put it in there, and it would works just like the existing backgrounds do.

No that’s not true. 3D games don’t require that you be able to rotate the camera. There’s countless 3D games with fixed camera systems. In fact, even the later TTG games don’t allow you to rotate the camera. They didn’t add that until Walking Dead 4.

Their very first true 3D game Jurassic Park not only allowed it, but in some puzzles even required it. Of course, it wasn’t completely unrestricted 360 spin on all three axis, so it can be debated, but when playing the game it’s obviously different than the previous Telltale games were.

PlanetX - 26 March 2019 08:40 AM

Also that’s not consistently true of all game maps in their games. Some maps are compact, some are bigger than others. Like the Hill Valley map in their Back To The Future game. Regardless, they’re all clearly in 3D and have full 3D movement. It’s not even debatable.

Look at the footage, are you denying this is a 3D game?

It has nothing to do with “maps”, it’s about movement that is allowed in the game. You can have a one room game, and it can either be 2D, 2.5D, or real 3D. Back to the Future is a text book example of 2.5D. You can move back and forth in the park, there are 3D models for sure, but you could replace that background with hand-drawn 2D cartoon or whatever, and it would play just like it plays now.
How many times can you change camera in that game? Zero.
How many times can you turn the camera in that game? Zero.
How many times can you switch between first and third persons views in that game? Zero.
How many times can you actually walk into any real depth in that game (not counting that minor variation inside the character movement area)? Zero.

Those are the things that a true 3D would allow to do, not necessarily all of them, but some of them. Telltale games are exactly like 2D games are, with the exception that they are based on 3D models.


While this is all very interesting, this doesn’t have much to do with BASS sequel anymore, so maybe this is as far as this goes.

     
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The article is talking about 2.5D in general, where isometric techniques are one thing for sure, but completely 3D modelled games locked into 2D movement are another. It’s all collectively known as 2.5D.

...that’s literally the first thing I described. and that description doesn’t apply to TTG games, they’re not locked into 2D movement.

The video I linked literally proves that wrong. You do move with depth lol. Also my point about the map size (as in the size of the level) is directly in response to you saying that the compact level design in some TTG areas precluded the games from being 3D (it doesn’t). I’ve literally linked you to a video that proves you’re mistaken so if you’re still unconvinced i don’t know what else I could say.

You can’t look at this gameplay footage and tell me this isn’t a 3D game.

I’m more than happy to leave it there, though. Because if even the video can’t convince you there’s not much else to say.

     
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Not just Beyond a Steel Sky was announced! It was revealed that Broken Sword 6 is a… VR game O_o (how come no one posted this yet?)
If anyone’s wondering where I learnt this : http://www.gameblog.fr/news/82332-les-chevaliers-de-baphomet-6-sera-un-jeu-en-realite-virtuell (sorry, French site)

I admit I really dislike 3D adventure games myself, including all the ones you’ve listed (except from walking simulators but they’re very different)

But I’m really curious about BK6 because I have a VR headset and it’s definitely a different, immersive experience - and I dreamt about an adventure game made with VR in mind!

     

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Not crazy about the art style. The 3D doesn’t bother me, but I’ve got the same “Tales of Monkey Island” feel all over again - there’s more style in the 20 year old original. Still, great news.

     

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This is my understanding of the whole 2D 3D thing.

2d = A flat background image, this could be pixel art, hand drawn, or pre-rendered 3d backgrounds. Basically anything that is static. With 2d sprites or video overlaid on top for anything that moves.

2.5d = A flat static background like the 2D one, with real time rendered 3d objects and/or characters (Something like MI4 or Lost Horizon).

Full 3d = Real time rendered everything (Anything from Call of Duty to Telltale games). A game where the graphics are rendered on the fly in a fully 3d environment.
For the most part early Telltale games played just like 2D or 2.5D games even though they are fully 3d.

diego - 26 March 2019 11:42 AM

Not crazy about the art style. The 3D doesn’t bother me, but I’ve got the same “Tales of Monkey Island” feel all over again - there’s more style in the 20 year old original. Still, great news.

I agree. I’m not sure why, but I’ve got a bad feeling about this one. But I’ll keep my eye on it anyway.

     

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SpeedBo - 26 March 2019 12:31 PM

I’m not sure why, but I’ve got a bad feeling about this one.

Well, the trailer did make it look like it will be more of an open world puzzle game rather than an adventure game. But, these kinds of trailers can be misleading, so I’m still more than intrigued about it as long as it won’t turn to be something like another the Witness. 

 

     

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diego - 26 March 2019 11:42 AM

Not crazy about the art style. The 3D doesn’t bother me, but I’ve got the same “Tales of Monkey Island” feel all over again - there’s more style in the 20 year old original. Still, great news.

Agree 100%, in the first second of a trailer I thought oouu nooo, this is not how it will look like or will it?

Have a really bad vibe, after all this waiting it seems that it will not be a squeal in the true sense of word, and it could be disappointing for true fans. 

 

     

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PlanetX - 26 March 2019 05:24 AM

There are many examples of adventure series that transitioned to 3D and were great.

King’s Quest 2015, Sam & Max (SWT,BS&T,TDP), Tales Of Monkey Island, Dreamfall Chapters, Sherlock Holmes, etc.

None of these were as good or as pretty as the 2D originals. :p

I love 2D myself, which I feel give more soul to a game than any polygon, and can’t understand the urge all developpers have to switch to 3D, especially in AGs.
Sure, it opens more possibilities related to the spacial aspects, but how many 3D AG actually use these in a way that’s meaningful ?
I know the Telltale games don’t, nor Simon 3D, nor the Sherlock games, not Grim Fandango.
And others like Dreamfall or Broken Sword 3 or (gasp) the Westerner or (gasp²) Fahrenheit do try but fail to get an interesting gameplay out of it.

I love 3D in Assassin’s Creed or Tomb Raider where big budgets allow for an incredibly immersive experience, and there have been some examples of pretty 3D games, like Edith Finch of Ethan Carter, but still, for games Beneath a Steel Sky or Technobabylon that have gorgeous 2D background which gave them a unique style and atmosphere I just don’t understand the choice to switch to 3D.
Hopefully the final results will prove me wrong, but in this 2D vs 3D case that would be a first. Meh

     
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Ninth - 26 June 2019 11:36 AM

Sure, it opens more possibilities related to the spacial aspects, but how many 3D AG actually use these in a way that’s meaningful ?

Tex Murphy showed how adventure games may benefit from 3D way back in 1994, too bad so few ags followed that example. Open-world RPGs also made great use of 3D since mid-1990s. Adventure genre should follow their example, I don’t know why developers are unable to create interactive, immersive and believable 3D worlds where all problems are solved not by brute force, but by puzzle solving.

     

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