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chrissie

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Hard puzzles at Adventures. These days!

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i am not gonna talk that much about this sorta obvious (story), which it as we see hard-convenient-logical puzzles are always the bread and butter of the genre, how we celebrate every adventure that has the kinda formula of the good story and the good (not-easy) puzzles; from Gabriel Knight to Technobabylon or the least kinda still-hard but smooth puzzles like Shardlight or the newest Earthworms.

All this i guess most will agree with, but the question of how it seems to be different to the generation of the age as us when we were introduced to the genre back then in the late 80s-90s, now, are more into easy puzzles and good story-driven (adventure) games. which kinda lean to an idea or a conclusion of difficult adventures or puzzles at them, might be sorta of ‘a con’ or a negative aspect that drive-out most of them away.

I dont know, but i need to wait until the end of this month and see how Hero-U will do, i mean does anyone think that the Coles could give any kind of an easy adventure with its RPG elements? and is there a possibility that new gamers (adventurers and RPGers) who had never heard of them or at least know the Sierra days, would buy it?, i think its kinda predictable of who will play Hero-U (other than the backers), but again i need to wait and see how difficult it will be and how its gonna sell, and this might answer my question. Or apart and away from Hero-U, does anyone think that there are other gamers than us, who witnessed the old days still interested in games with Myst-Obduction difficulty?

     
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Nice topic, Advie. Grin

I can obviously only speak for myself but I will probably always be someone that finds challenging puzzles almost as important as storyline.  Though games like What Remains of Edith Finch and Gone Home have changed my mind as to how important storyline is, I still currently consider these to be the exception to the rule.

If that trend continues maybe I will be happier to play more story-driven adventures but I play adventure games specifically to be challenged in this way.  I can always watch a movie or play different genres but this amalgamation of intriguing puzzles and compelling story/characters is my passion.  As you point out, it’s what us olds grew up on.

     
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There will always be people who want challenging puzzles, and there will always be games that have them. In fact, we just reviewed two of them (STAY, The Painscreek Killings).

But puzzles in games have three major hurdles:

1) Once you’ve unlocked the secrets of a certain type of puzzle, it will never be as challenging again. This applies to every “hardcore” gamer here. We’ve all unpacked the thinking behind “adventure game logic” and so the puzzles that we used to find difficult no longer are (or at least, not nearly as difficult, just a matter of perseverance).

2) Puzzles and story are usually incompatible. A story is meant by its very nature to flow, a puzzle is inherently designed to be an obstacle to overcome. It’s very, very difficult to meld the two in an intuitive way. That’s why there are so very few real classics in the genre. (It’s also why we choose to “reward” adventure games that have puzzles with graded reviews and Aggie eligibility and do not for games that cop out of trying.)

3) A byproduct of 1&2 is the existence of STUPID puzzles. Most of us know the Old Man Murray rant by now, and while it may have unfairly singled out GK3, it’s a real problem to continue creating new puzzles that pose a challenge without resorting to absurd scenarios and solutions.

So, all that’s to say, I definitely think there’s still an appetite for challenging puzzles—and not just in the adventure community; some of the tasks in puzzle-platformers put adventure puzzles to shame—but they’ve got to be smart, integrated, fresh-feeling puzzles or else it just feels like more of the same, but worse. And who really wants THAT.

The other thing far too many adventure games suck at is proper cluing. Of all the puzzles I’ve ever given up on and resorted to a walkthrough to solve, the vast majority are because I’d missed an item or a clue that I never knew existed. Some may claim that’s part of the challenge, but it’s not puzzle-solving, it’s pixel hunting of one type or another. And that just ain’t fun when you’re stuck. I think that’s a large part of why many people consider adventure games frustrating rather than fun. Puzzles don’t just need to be challenging, they need to be challenging in the right WAY.

     
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Joined 2013-08-29

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Three recent-ish games that still stand out in my mind for all the puzzling joy they gave me (apart from STAY, which is very fresh in my mind) are A Tale of Caos, The Witness, and The Eyes of Ara.

Caos presented the good ol’ inventory-based kind of puzzles, but managed to keep the majority of them from being obvious, and actually made them feel fresh. Both Witness and Ara present puzzles in their purer form, though both being very different in execution, and both managing to make the puzzle-solving into a great time full of discovery and satisfaction.

And that’s coming from someone who’s number 1 priority in most games is a well-told, intriguing story.

     

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To me integrating gameplay into plot doesn’t only mean that gameplay fits in plot -it also means that plot wraps around gameplay. So if designer is not ready to make plot that wraps around gameplay or alter her plot so it does wrap around gameplay then she either ends up making game with baddly integrated gameplay or cuts down gameplay so it doesn’t get in way of her storytelling.
There is change of making puzzle heavy games somewhat more interesting to people if they were to have plots that are created for or altered for presenting gameplay goals to player. I think many classics are still on sale because of fact that they had this kind of plots.

     
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garbo - 20 May 2018 09:03 AM

There is change of making puzzle heavy games somewhat more interesting to people if they were to have plots that are created for or altered for presenting gameplay goals to player. I think many classics are still on sale because of fact that they had this kind of plots.

There are still new Adventures that are classics, from Wadjet-Eye Games to the late German devs i.e Daedalic whom had left us a handful of adventures which will always be cherished, comparing to LucasArts which also didn’t departed the scene with not so many games like Sierra (around 70 adventure games) but what makes them always overcome Sierra in the history of the genre is that they had the quality over the quantity, you can choose any of the (around 16) adventures of LucasArts without much thinking but with Sierra you need to be careful of what will apppeal to you esp. with today minimum standards and outlook, so there are big chest full classics from this millennium than the re-released ones of Gog from time to time, (happily) they are covering a LOT nowadays but you need to look out there for them to find out where you can buy, and add to that you might find trouble playing them on moderm ‘machines’, but however they are much.

     
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Joined 2012-05-22

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Some of the harder puzzles I’ve seen lately (not counting stuff like The Witness), were probably in Tales (this had some pretty hard ones), a couple bits in The Legend of Hand had me stuck a while (haven’t played Caos yet).  Foxtail had some pretty great ones that got mostly nerfed (due to complaints).  It’s pretty different from the classic games, stuff gets hinted at a lot, and doesn’t always seem exploration-led (dialog usually gives you an idea of what’s next, to varying degrees).

     
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Tales, yeah some crazy things in this game, i haven’t tried Tale of Caos, yet. Have to tho. yet sadly they are both pixel art style without voice acting.

     
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Advie - 21 May 2018 08:51 AM

Tales, yeah some crazy things in this game, i haven’t tried Tale of Caos, yet. Have to tho. yet sadly they are both pixel art style without voice acting.

I’m pretty sure Tales has voice acting. Very good acting, from what I remember.

     
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cyfoyjvx - 21 May 2018 10:07 AM
Advie - 21 May 2018 08:51 AM

Tales, yeah some crazy things in this game, i haven’t tried Tale of Caos, yet. Have to tho. yet sadly they are both pixel art style without voice acting.

I’m pretty sure Tales has voice acting. Very good acting, from what I remember.

my bad, its been a while and i am not used Pixel-Art games with voice acting, i usually skip the ones without, and dont play them unless i am sure they are worth it.

     

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I’m not sure puzzle difficulty is a big factor in whether new generations will want to play Adventure Games or not.
Being stuck has always been a part of gaming, and is still very much in fashion, as the success of games like Dark Souls, for example, demonstrates.

I also don’t think puzzle difficulty has changed much since the “olden days”. Some games were overly easy back then (Lost Eden Sick, but even some Sierra games like Larry), while others were much harder (the Simon the Sorcerer games, or Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon, for example).
It’s still true today ; for example the Deponia games are quite hard, while games like The Cat Lady are pretty easy. And I’m only mentioning inventory-based games here, but it’s also true with the other kinds of AGs.

     

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