[oerhört]

I get your point, what I was trying to imply was just that as a person actually rather interested in adventure games, they tend to fail to make an impression. That is, I'm actually really rather interested in those games, and tend to check them up on a regular basis whenever one hits the mainstream coverage. But that is not all that often. The concepts need to be strong enough to make mainstream gaming magazines cover them, the graphics should be distinct enough to do the same, and so on.

I'm actually not saying the adventure genre is dead -- actually, I find "genre X is dead" a rather tired and unhelpful concept -- but I was trying to point out that the examples that the previous poster gave aren't worth much to convince the general consumer that adventures are exciting, since few of them made the headlines at all.

If I was to convince someone that adventures are not dead, I'd choose Heavy Rain. Now there's an adventure game that is getting the headlines. I realize Quantic Dream have a rather helpful economic situation with Sony right now, but there are other ways of achieving the same attention without it having to cost your left leg. Fahrenheit did manage to gather quite a crowd as well, as did The Longest Journey.

To my mind, all you have to do is to make a through-and-through quality game and be able to actually communicate it through marketing, covers, concept art and previews to the mainstream gaming public. It's easier than ever these days, since good indie titles are seriously "in".

I'm not saying that garnering attention is necessarily easy, but adventure game developers seem to be making a particularly bad job of it most of the time.

And yeah, part of getting attention is to have a new concept. (Instead of offering a rehash of Monkey Island mechanics, stripped of the humor.)

[KasiaD]

The question for me is not whether adventure games are dead, but whether they are dead to You...
One might play all the major games since 2000 and find nothing of interest, contrary to other genres. This might happen if what one seeks is innovation and development. These are more abundant in other genres, which are more popular, therefore proftable and attract more devepers, programmers, etc among which everybody has their own idea how to do it and there, evolution is ready.

I would reluctantly see dramatic changes in adventures, and certainly that would be tuning them to be RPG - like clones. Evolution, by definiton, is change, and happens slowly - perhaps the amount of change in the genre can be estimated in greater time, it is too early for that. My preference is adventures do not merge into some Falluot-Myst hybrid where while doing a slider puzzle I will have to require a bazooka to defend myself against angry enemies...

Concentration is the most important thing needed in adventure playing - my friends for instance would not play adventures because the high demand for being focused and lack of adrenaline at the same is not their idea of amusement. This is my remark on the theory that more mentally challenged people prefer silly games like doom..

This is so not true... Everybody has different tastes thats all..

[darthmaul]

Originally Posted by KasiaD

The question for me is not whether adventure games are dead, but whether they are dead to You...
One might play all the major games since 2000 and find nothing of interest, contrary to other genres. This might happen if what one seeks is innovation and development. These are more abundant in other genres, which are more popular, therefore proftable and attract more devepers, programmers, etc among which everybody has their own idea how to do it and there, evolution is ready.

I would reluctantly see dramatic changes in adventures, and certainly that would be tuning them to be RPG - like clones. Evolution, by definiton, is change, and happens slowly - perhaps the amount of change in the genre can be estimated in greater time, it is too early for that. My preference is adventures do not merge into some Falluot-Myst hybrid where while doing a slider puzzle I will have to require a bazooka to defend myself against angry enemies...

Concentration is the most important thing needed in adventure playing - my friends for instance would not play adventures because the high demand for being focused and lack of adrenaline at the same is not their idea of amusement. This is my remark on the theory that more mentally challenged people prefer silly games like doom..

This is so not true... Everybody has different tastes thats all..

Could you point me to some innovation that you claim is happening in other, more popular, PC genres.

[imisssunwell]

@ Beacon, I feel similarly for the point-n-click interface, I'd like to see more games developed with other user interfaces as well.

@ oerhört, I am keen to see Heavy Rain as well, I have quite high expectations from it and I hope it raises the bar of standards for AGs.


@ aries323, a different interface doesn't have to obligatory have a 1st person view. In many games today you can customize if you want 1st person or 3rd person view .

@ Jannik, I'd like to see physics puzzles, think they have much potential and offer variety.

@ KasiaD, you don't have to incorporate combat elements from other genres.

[KasiaD]

Originally Posted by darthmaul

Could you point me to some innovation that you claim is happening in other, more popular, PC genres.

Innovation happened the moment a lot of games became playable online - not only RPGs but shooters as well. Way of plaing changes completely - people are forming clans and make appointments to play together...

Also as innovation I perceive the incorporation of user content into games. The editors is games became hugely developed. In games like Sims or Spore you can insert almost everything you create yourself, pets, wallpapers, music files. You can actively take part in game creation.

@imisssunwell - I could't agree more - combat elements should go where they belong

[dark_ixion]

Originally Posted by AndreaDraco83

This is interesting, and the only game that really took advantage of a night/day cycle is the old King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella. I can live without a dynamic cycle, but at least I want to experience a life-life, realistic time flow, with days passing and so on, like the Tex Murphy games or, once again, the Gabriel Knight ones.

Shenmue immediately came to mind when I read that. The time of day drives the entire game.

[Jadefalcon]

It's not an adventure game, but the day/night cycle made a difference in the Xbox 360 game Dead Rising.

[thejobloshow]

Does this forum attract this topic a lot? I remember the 'adventure game is dead' conversation being had in 2001. Anywho, the point-and-click adventure has surely seen its last days - just like the death of the text adventure before it. It doesn't mean adventure is dead, just that the idea of what constitutes adventure will change much like the idea of broadcasting changing with the rise of new media and media aggregators like TiVo! Don't feel too bad, joining in the demise of the point-and-click adventure is;

1. The 2D platformer, which was a staple of console gaming,
2. The 2D fighter, Street Fighter being the exception as usual and,
3. Top-down action games from Gauntlet to GTA.

I think the main issue holding adventure games back is that they are bloody expensive to make given the risk, even though I think the audience is there. I don't want to undermine the talent that goes into action games because they are becoming quite sophisticated but adventure games need to develop a complex dialogue system, puzzles along with a cinematic feeling incorporated into the 3D gaming environment.

The Internet is great because it has introduced all new business models to the gaming industry that has been able to cater quality adventure games - Telltale Games has hit upon this gold; take well known franchises with marquee value and create episodic adventures (this takes a page from Chris Anderson's Long Tail model where instead of having the big hit that funds the smaller projects, you have a greater collection of smaller games that sustain the business's longevity.) I think making the modes of production cheaper would encourage growth and in turn encourage a revival in a mainstream adventure game scene.

[oerhört]

Assuming "dead" means "not commercially viable", I disagree on two of three counts (as well as regarding adventures).

The 2D platformer is not dead, it has been given new life by reimaginings such as Bionic Commando Rearmed and Lode Runner and indie efforts such as N+, Braid and And Yet it Moves. It has been reinvented.

The 2D fighter is not dead, it has just gone mostly hardcore, rather like adventures. The community around those games is tight-knit and active, and the number of series is still large. King of Fighters, Tekken, DoA, Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, Capcom vs. SNK, Soul Calibur and so on and so on.

The top-down game is perhaps close. GTA: Chinatown Wars is fantastic, but it's likely that some of the "lacking" sales were due to the format.

[Flink]

Haven't read all the posts in the thread but here's my opinion about the subject.

I think it's hard to define what is an "adventure" game and i think many people often think of point and click adventure games when they talk about adventure games in general.

If you look up the definition of "adventure game" on wikipedia you get:

An adventure game is a video game in which the player assumes the role of protagonist in an interactive story that is driven by exploration and puzzle-solving instead of physical challenges such as combat.

So if we follow this it advocates that the game should formost be about exploration and puzzles but combat can be a part of the game, just not the thing you spend most time with or which progresses the game forward. I don't completely agree because i think exploration could be very much a physical action/challenge in the game and i think games that is only about exploration of the game world is very much an adventure game. So games like Knytt,Knytt Stories & Within a deep forest, Blueberry Garden and Aquaria should count as adventure games in my opinion. And some of this games don't have a strong narrative and that is not something i think is necessary for an adventure game to have, i don't know how you others feel about this? Because i got feeling that many of you have the opinion that adventure games needs to have a strong narrative? Excuse me if i'm wrong but that's the impression ive got.

There's also a bunch of other subgenres with games as Beyond Good & Evil, ICO, Penumbra Series, Heavy Rain etc. so i think the genre is far from dead. But if you look at point-and-click adventure games they might not be as good as in the past or as mainstream as it was, and that could be the "adventure-games-is-dead-opinion-question-whatever".

I think the problem with point-and-click games is that it is point-and-click only, it don't give much room for any other game mechanics becides some puzzles that is often set a part as a mini game in the game. So i think the evolution could be to leave the point-and-click part and have the base mechanics/movement from an action adventure game, like Heavy Rain is doing. And then there is the dialog systems, which often is very boring to explore in my opinion. You just try every dialog choice there is until you got what you wanted, doesen't feel very natural or optimal to deliver an interactive story, so there's one i think you could explore for more interesting solutions.

But this is only my own opinion, so don't get mad or angry folks.

[oerhört]

Unless something is stated clearly as fact, I think it goes without saying that forum statements are opinions.

[Flink]

Originally Posted by oerhört

Unless something is stated clearly as fact, I think it goes without saying that forum statements are opinions.

Hehe yea but very often people get totaly wicked when people state their opinions on forums, and i'm new here to so i don't really know what climat it was here.

[Jadefalcon]

Just to let everyone know, my opinions are 100% correct fact because I'm such a modest SOB.

[thejobloshow]

Originally Posted by oerhört

Assuming "dead" means "not commercially viable", I disagree on two of three counts (as well as regarding adventures).

The 2D platformer is not dead, it has been given new life by reimaginings such as Bionic Commando Rearmed and Lode Runner and indie efforts such as N+, Braid and And Yet it Moves. It has been reinvented.

The 2D fighter is not dead, it has just gone mostly hardcore, rather like adventures. The community around those games is tight-knit and active, and the number of series is still large. King of Fighters, Tekken, DoA, Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, Capcom vs. SNK, Soul Calibur and so on and so on.

The top-down game is perhaps close. GTA: Chinatown Wars is fantastic, but it's likely that some of the "lacking" sales were due to the format.

Lots of good examples - death is so final! If you take into account format, distribution, different audiences - there's a place for adventure games enough to make us feel secure about its sustainability.

[imisssunwell]

Ron Gilbert gave an interesting interview at http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=191. It has to do with his new game Deathspank which is an Adventure/RPG mix

[Flink]

I don't know if you have read this, Ernest Adams gives he's thoughts on the current state of adventure games.

[thejobloshow]

Originally Posted by Flink

I don't know if you have read this, Ernest Adams gives he's thoughts on the current state of adventure games.

Good article - What stood out for me though was this user comment:

Originally Posted by Dave Endresak

I want to point out that we need to be very specific about what we mean by "adventure game." Ernest actually means "Western adventure game" in this piece. Japanese and East Asian adventure games (and the related genres of visual novels and simulations) are completely different as far as structure and play mechanics, but they are also adventure games. In fact, many of the biggest problems of Western market adventures have been faced and resolved in Japanese adventure games: often excellent writing, acting, music, etc.

It's also worth noting that adventures (and visual novels and simulations) are the biggest quantity of games offered in Japan, including many popular, excellent doujin works. This is sometimes echoed by best seller charts, too - it's not all that unusual to see games in one or more of these genres hitting the top 100 at Amazon or elsewhere, and even the top 10.

Perhaps more exposure to these games would help Western market developers resolve some of their issues with design and other factors of concern.

Is this true? A cure lies in the East for improving adventure?

[Flink]

Time to read up on Asian adventure games then eh? Could be quite interesting, just one tough problem a head, most of the Asian adventure games probably doesn't have English translation.

[Flink]

Just saw this this thread, shall read it now.

[mgeorge]

Originally Posted by thejobloshow

Does this forum attract this topic a lot? I remember the 'adventure game is dead' conversation being had in 2001. Anywho, the point-and-click adventure has surely seen its last days - just like the death of the text adventure before it.

This is what bothers me about the genre. Point and click is not dead. There are quite a few people that visit this forum that become outraged if a game is made without this dated gameplay mechanism.

Frogwares who develop the Sherlock Holmes games even went to the extent of totally revamping SH The Awakened to accommodate the traditional AG'er. Why should game devs bother with trying to innovate when many people don't want it? They can continue to pump out traditional AG's with dated graphics, convoluted puzzles and weak storylines because that's exactly what sells within the genre. And why not? There's much cheaper to make after all.

While I admit that games like Dreamfall, Indigo Prophecy and The Experiment have their faults, they at least tried something new in the genre. I'm not saying all AG's are in this mold. I recently completed Lost Crown, and while it had it's fair share of things I personally don't like in an AG, it also contained some fresh ideas that the genre is desperately in need of IMO.