[Find Therma]

@nomadsoul

It still depends on what you want from a game. And it's down to balance - interactivity (in the sense you refer to it) vs thought/mental stimulation. How much does someone wants to tip that balance. If a player wants to see how quick they can press buttons in the right order, then play a beat-em-up which has high interactivity but little to no thought involved. If another player wants complete mental stimulation from a game, then don't play a beat-em-up, play a pure puzzle game.

@imissunwell

I must admit that certain commercial adventures I have played lately have left me feeling dissapointed and at least partly support some of the points you make. Secret Files Tunguska and The Black Mirror spring to mind. Games that got almost unanimously good reviews from adventure games site, but which I thought were merely ok (if that) and flawed in many ways. Poor writing, uninspired narrative, poor puzle design which often didn't fit appropriately into the physical space of the character.

In this respect I can see your point about rpgs, many of the actions you undertake seemingly have more relevence than in certain adventure games such as the ones I've mentioned.

I don't think the genre needs to reinvent itself though. Rather I think it needs to make sure it keeps doing the things it can do so well. What's wrong with a game that has an intriguing story, believable atmosphere, gameplay that comes about from logical situations that the character may find themself in? These are things that the great adventure games have managed to implement without some of the more rpg like suggestions you've made.

The notepad system in Discworld Noir for example is a gameplay element that worked brilliantly imho, yet few (if any) titles since then have used this. The atmosphere and immersion in Black Dahlia and Gabriel Knight 3 were incredible, so new titles should use these as an example of what can be done. There is room for improvement in all/many/some modern titles depending on who you're asking, but I don't think drastic reinvention of the genre is needed, just more care taken by the developers as to what makes an adventure game worth playing in the first place.

[nomadsoul]

Originally Posted by Find Therma

@nomadsoul
If a player wants to see how quick they can press buttons in the right order, then play a beat-em-up which has high interactivity but little to no thought involved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk

[GarageGothic]

Damn, now I feel like playing Street Fighter.

[imisssunwell]

@ Find Therma, I didn't like tunguska as well, from recent AGs I kinda liked vampyre story but it felt as bad value for money for 3 reasons, 1) price given the game is short 2) no reason to replay it/stay in the game world, 3) online distribution only is ok, but only 2 activations (bought it for my mac laptop) is a joke, unless they change that I don't see me buying the sequel. A Vampyre Story II should be much cheaper if points 2) and 3) stay as they are & game remains as short, especially point 3) makes me feel like I payed for renting it.
The intent seems to be epicsodic releases, so I don't blaim the ending in VS but the price, given it's just an episode without any replay value (and possibly even re-install value). I could go on with VS weaknesses that imho removed potential out of an interesting idea but it would be way off topic.

Many things like non-linearity in the game, real options are not rpg only, they rather add a sandbox feature to the game, many genres seem to adopt that and I think it fits nicely into AGs. Also, more side-quests mean more gamehours and also give something to do while stuck. A mod tool also adds imho a lot of value to the game. only factions/professions/stats are rpg features, I think these can be meaningfully adapted to AGs but even if not, all the rest points would add value to AGs. As I said before I'd really be happy to see possible additions from people that play more shooters or startegy games or any other genre, I used rpgs & PoP as examples because these are the sort of games I am well familar with and can compare them to AGs not because I think AGs should become rpgs but rather because I can spot elements of rpgs (but not bound to them, that's why I didn't include e.g. leveling & gearing up) that could fit into AGs but I can't claim the same for e.g. Strategy games.

Unless some features which tend to be considered standard features of games as years are embodied into AGs, the people interested in AGs will become less and less. The chances of seeing a top notch game being developed for a shrinking audience will drop leading to a buried genre for some period.

Regarding the need for puzzles to fit with the story/physical space & necessity of a good atmosphere and story I agree 100%. However eg having more realistic enviroments (better game engines) only helps in the atmosphere, having choices that interact with the environment also help the atmosphere, else for me at least, it feels like knocking on 10 doors and having a fixed one de-facto opening, choosing the door adds salt & pepper and replay value.

@ darthmaul, I was refering to KQs as high quality games with regard to their release period, as I mention many times in my post. KQ games are barely playable by todays standards. Of course even a mediocre game 20 years later would have KQs bad points corrected, there is not much to celebrate on that. A fair comparison can only be made if the gaming era is taken into consideration, KQs were top notch games *for their era*, while current AGs (apart from a couple of exceptions) rarely get good reviews.

For offline rpgs I replied some posts back, if you wish to stick to Bioware games its better graphics, better voice, better dialogue system, newer & better AD&D and developemt of mod tools. Outside Bioware, Fable is totally open-ended I don't think any other rpg has reached such levels of non-linearity, I haven't played daggerfall, I never liked its graphics even when it was at its prime so can't comment on morrowing/oblivion vs daggerfall. But even if it was just voice & graphics, at least these two sectors had huge advancement in rpgs, in AGs, outside a couple of exceptions, I sadly cannot say the same.

Regarding WoW, having a max level character in a raiding game (where most people have max level toons) doesn't say much. In Blizzard forums we see alts claiming they killed Kael & Vashj *pre nerf* and passed Muru easily, an intelligent guess would suggest they didn't, so I won't ask how far into the endgame you have reached as anyone can claim anything in forums.
By saying it's aggro+4 button smashing, my guess is that you haven't done much endgame raiding, maybe t1 or t4 or t7 raiding, aka the first raiding tier of each expansion, else you would have seen more than tank & spank fights.
Admittedly, the 1st raiding tier MC/Kara-Magy-Gruul/Naxx80 is always easy and is meant as easy content catered to casuals. If you progress to subsequent raids, they become significantly harder, with the last tier of raiding usually being completed only by the top guilds of each server. There unless you have intelligent players, use intelligent setups & play at your absolute best it is impossible to progress and it is certainly not doable by aggroing+4 button smashing.

[darthmaul]

"if you wish to stick to Bioware games its better graphics, better voice, better dialogue system, newer & better AD&D and developemt of mod tools"

Graphics are incredibly unimportant for good gameplay, which is at the crux of what makes a game great. Besides, even indie games like Lost crown look beautiful. Other games like Nikopol look absolutely fantastic.

Voice- AGs have voice too, and many are done incredibly well.

"Better dialogue system"- Your opinion. Imo, not only is the dialogue as obvious as could be as to whether it'll make you good or evil, it is still the same as it was 10 years ago. Additionally, games like Fallout 1-2 STILL did it way better with tons more REAL options. If anything, it has regressed.

"Newer and better D&D"- This is a meaningless statement to me. Using the same game system or modified slightly for over 10 years is the very definition of stagnant. I mean, how many times can you play the system without being bored to tears with it? I know I have.

In an rpg, using the same levelling system and mock "choices" gets repetitive. It is the core of the game- levelling/combat/dialogue.

Mod tools are nice. Hey, ever hear of AGS? You know, the same one that has been modified to produce amazing graphics while still letting average joe create his own games for many many years already?


I get it, you want better graphics and more mainstream. However, that does not make the genre, which is thriving with tons of quality games, "dead."

Additionally, a majority of the rpg scene on the pc is dominated by indie works like Avernum/Geneforge and others.

[imisssunwell]

@ darthmaul,

TLDR: yes, I want better graphics and features that tend to become industry standards now, I think not having these is partly why the ton of AGs which come out every year get mostly low review scores, so I can't agree that they are great games.

Stating a ton of quality adventure games comes out again but not backing it up with reviews, they mostly get low scores, I don't see something great in that. AGs that get an average score above 85% are unfortunately a minority and for many people 85% is the threshold they look at (the score required for a game to be rated good) in order to find something worth purchasing, personally I look more for ~90% score games.

AGs certainly lack in the graphics department again reflected at most of their review scores in the graphics sector. A look at e.g. Oblivion, which btw is getting dated, will make the difference in graphics clear.

Regarding mods, AGS is not on par with the ability to mod a modern game engine and I cant see why not advance to have a more powerful engine for mods. I'd be happy if adventure games like Dreamfall, which were strong in the graphics department, provided the ability to make mods with their engine.

In rpgs again you may not consider Bioware to have advanced, I can't agree with that but if you find AD&D stagnant, what about WoW where the mechanics change allot over time, almost with each minor patch?

Regarding spiderweb games, I doubt the majority of rpg gamers play these, if again by scene you mean people that belong to the rpg indy community then your statement paired with such a definition of scene is quite redundant.
I see games in the style of Geneforge as an interesting option eg for the iphone, when I am on the bus, but it is not something I would play on my desktop or laptop, if they were developed for iphone I would be willing to spend on them, within iphone game price-ranges of course.

[darthmaul]

"TLDR: yes, I want better graphics and features that tend to become industry standards now, I think not having these is partly why the ton of AGs which come out every year get mostly low review scores, so I can't agree that they are great games."


Except, I listed 40+ that got rave reviews, with a supermajority getting 4/5 or better.

Why do you think so many of the mainstream websites switched from x/5 to x/10? Because it shows better on sites like gamerankings. You have to take each review in context of the site reviewed from.

Why do you think every hyped big name game gets a 90%+ on release and then are talked poorly about later? Think it has anything to do with big pockets and corruption? Doom 3 anyone? Got a 98% at first... Yeah what quality!


AGs certainly lack in the graphics department again reflected at most of their review scores in the graphics sector. A look at e.g. Oblivion, which btw is getting dated, will make the difference in graphics clear.


I don't care about graphics compared to gameplay. But as I've stated, even indies like Lost Crown have beautiful art and very nice graphics. Nikopol is stunning. You'd rather shiny graphics than great gameplay with poor graphics. This is where we differ.


Regarding mods, AGS is not on par with the ability to mod a modern game engine and I cant see why not advance to have a more powerful engine for mods. I'd be happy if adventure games like Dreamfall, which were strong in the graphics department, provided the ability to make mods with their engine.


So, you prefer being limited to one engine and limited game type instead of being able to create any type of adventure game that you'd like from AGS?



In rpgs again you may not consider Bioware to have advanced, I can't agree with that but if you find AD&D stagnant, what about WoW where the mechanics change allot over time, almost with each minor patch?


Wow's mechanics change so infinitesimal that after 2 years I tried again and it took me 5 minutes to adjust to the changes. Besides, WOW is a deevolution from greater games a decade ago like Asheron's Call. Asheron's Call had a game world so large you'll never run out of places to explore, while in WOW, you will see it all in a month or 2. In Asheron's Call, you could kill someone 10 levels higher than you if you are more skilled. In wow, it is all level and then gear based, with a fraction on skill. In Asheron's Call there were no skill-less stuns where you lose complete control of your character. In Asheron's Call it took years to max level, in Wow, it took a month.

I would rather stare at a blank wall than hit 4 buttons over and over in the same dungeon for the 50th time to get a 2% drop that will barely help you, just so you could repeat that dungeon for 50 more times. It is mindless, but it is what casual gamers want. Let them have it, but it is simplification and streamlining and boring in the utmost.

It is also a huge regression from both the past of MMOs and past rpgs like Fallout 2.



Regarding spiderweb games, I doubt the majority of rpg gamers play these, if again by scene you mean people that belong to the rpg indy community then your statement paired with such a definition of scene is quite redundant.
I see games in the style of Geneforge as an interesting option eg for the iphone, when I am on the bus, but it is not something I would play on my desktop or laptop, if they were developed for iphone I would be willing to spend on them, within iphone game price-ranges of course.


Yes, you'd prefer something with a game system you've played 20x before and with shiny graphics.

You literally could not pay me to play Bioware clones/Morrowind clones anymore. SAME GAME repeated over and over with shinier graphics.

[Beacon]

Originally Posted by darthmaul

You literally could not pay me to play Bioware clones/Morrowind clones anymore. SAME GAME repeated over and over with shinier graphics.

Pretty much how I feel about the state of Adventure Games today.

[imisssunwell]

@ darthmaul, don't misquote me, there is a word for that, "plagiarism" and its not flatering. I never said a high bar shouldn't be set on gameplay.

Also, only 6 games out of the ones you listed go above 8.5/10, one even got a 4/10, these games span nearly a decade. Not even close to 10+ great games per year.

As this is probably tiring most thread readers, in order to stop using numbers out of your head I list IGN reviews for the games you cited:

Barrow Hill: 8.1/10
Dark Fall: 7.8/10
The Lost Crown: 7/10
Diamonds in the Rough: 6/10 (adventure games, ign didnt have a review)
* - TLJ: 9.3/10
Myst III: 8/10
Still Life: 6.7/10 (gamespot, couldn't find an IGN review) or even worse 5/10 from eurogamer.
Return to Mysterious Island: 7.3/10 (gamespot, couldn't find an IGN review)
The secrets of Da Vinci: 7.1/10
Last half of darkness : 1989 & 2000

Black Mirror : 7.2/10

Dark Fall 2: 6.3/10 (from gamespot couldnt find an IGN review)

Sam and Max series: 7.1/10 S1 ign review (Wii) and 8.1/10 S2

RHEM 1-3: RHEM 3 received 6.5/10

Syberia 1: 7.1/10
* Syberia 2: 8.6/10

Blackwell series(2006-2008)

ECC(2009)

Runaway 1: 7.5/10 (gamespot, didnt find an IGN review)
Runaway 2: 7.2/10

* Myst IV: 9/10
* Myst V: 8.8/10
* Bad Mojo: 9/10 (gamespot, didnt find an IGN review)

Tony Tough: 8/10 (adventuregamers.com IGN/gamespot didn't review it)

Agon 1-4: found an 7.5/10 from inside mac games for AGON: Mysterious codex

Voyage(2005): 6/10 (gamespot)

Overclocked: 7/10
Perry Rhodan: 5.8/10

So Blonde: 6.8/10

Nostradamus: 7.4/10

* Ceville: 9.0/10

Culpa Innata: 4.0/10

Moment of Silence: 6.9/10

Vampyre Story: 7.6/10

Schizm 1-2: couldn't spot reviews from legitimate sources.


Regarding WoW, I have to be honest and say I don't believe you ever run endgame content, it is clear form what you write. Also Asheron's Call wasn't even half as successful WoW is thanks to the 10-11 million(!) (unintelligent by your standards I presume) subscribers Blizzard has. Also spiderweb 60mb games cost more than Oblivion does in amazon.com, this makes it an easy choice for most people.

10+ great games per year, WoW a regression and 60 mb games > Mass Effect & Oblivion is far from what numbers point out. I'd be thankful if you had something to back up your statements, else I will have to reach the conclusion that you are just trying to troll the thread.

[Melanie68]

This thread has gotten to be very confusing. There seem to be more private conversations going on between people rather than a general discussion. It seems to be that way to me because hardly any of you are using quote boxes and it makes it incredibly confusing to what statements you are referring (or if you just put quotes around someone else's statements, they disappear in the posts). If you find your conversation is becoming more private, use the private message feature.

Definitely watch your tone (this is directed generally). If you think someone is trolling or you are having an issue with someone's posts, let a moderator know ( me, FantasySci5, stepurhan, Dale Baldwin, AndreaDraco83), otherwise don't derail the thread with discussing how another forum member is behaving.

[darthmaul]

Originally Posted by imisssunwell

@ darthmaul, don't misquote me, there is a word for that, "plagiarism" and its not flatering. I never said a high bar shouldn't be set on gameplay.

Also, only 6 games out of the ones you listed go above 8.5/10, one even got a 4/10, these games span nearly a decade. Not even close to 10+ great games per year.

As this is probably tiring most thread readers, in order to stop using numbers out of your head I list IGN reviews for the games you cited:

Barrow Hill: 8.1/10
Dark Fall: 7.8/10
The Lost Crown: 7/10
Diamonds in the Rough: 6/10 (adventure games, ign didnt have a review)
* - TLJ: 9.3/10
Myst III: 8/10
Still Life: 6.7/10 (gamespot, couldn't find an IGN review) or even worse 5/10 from eurogamer.
Return to Mysterious Island: 7.3/10 (gamespot, couldn't find an IGN review)
The secrets of Da Vinci: 7.1/10
Last half of darkness : 1989 & 2000

Black Mirror : 7.2/10

Dark Fall 2: 6.3/10 (from gamespot couldnt find an IGN review)

Sam and Max series: 7.1/10 S1 ign review (Wii) and 8.1/10 S2

RHEM 1-3: RHEM 3 received 6.5/10

Syberia 1: 7.1/10
* Syberia 2: 8.6/10

Blackwell series(2006-2008)

ECC(2009)

Runaway 1: 7.5/10 (gamespot, didnt find an IGN review)
Runaway 2: 7.2/10

* Myst IV: 9/10
* Myst V: 8.8/10
* Bad Mojo: 9/10 (gamespot, didnt find an IGN review)

Tony Tough: 8/10 (adventuregamers.com IGN/gamespot didn't review it)

Agon 1-4: found an 7.5/10 from inside mac games for AGON: Mysterious codex

Voyage(2005): 6/10 (gamespot)

Overclocked: 7/10
Perry Rhodan: 5.8/10

So Blonde: 6.8/10

Nostradamus: 7.4/10

* Ceville: 9.0/10

Culpa Innata: 4.0/10

Moment of Silence: 6.9/10

Vampyre Story: 7.6/10

Schizm 1-2: couldn't spot reviews from legitimate sources.


Regarding WoW, I have to be honest and say I don't believe you ever run endgame content, it is clear form what you write. Also Asheron's Call wasn't even half as successful WoW is thanks to the 10-11 million(!) (unintelligent by your standards I presume) subscribers Blizzard has. Also spiderweb 60mb games cost more than Oblivion does in amazon.com, this makes it an easy choice for most people.

10+ great games per year, WoW a regression and 60 mb games > Mass Effect & Oblivion is far from what numbers point out. I'd be thankful if you had something to back up your statements, else I will have to reach the conclusion that you are just trying to troll the thread.

Explain "60 mb games > Mass Effect & Oblivion". Size of a game means a better game???? Since when? I'm pretty Sure Monkey Island 2 was quite small...

How about actually refuting my criticism of WOW.

Sales numbers mean greatness?

IGN, a hype, big money lapping review site, used as a bar none representation of the state of adventure gaming as a whole? Doom 3 got a 9.0 there. How can any adventure game compete with the perfection that is Doom 3?

Then you accuse me of trolling?

I'll repeat again. If sales and ability to be meanstream mean anything, then I should have to start catching up with greatness! American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, Harry Potter, Dan Brown, Brittany Spears, designer clothing, and sports watching.

I thought you were out for a serious discussion. My mistake. I'll stay away.

[imisssunwell]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

This thread has gotten to be very confusing. There seem to be more private conversations going on between people rather than a general discussion. It seems to be that way to me because hardly any of you are using quote boxes and it makes it incredibly confusing to what statements you are referring (or if you just put quotes around someone else's statements, they disappear in the posts). If you find your conversation is becoming more private, use the private message feature.

Definitely watch your tone (this is directed generally). If you think someone is trolling or you are having an issue with someone's posts, let a moderator know ( me, FantasySci5, stepurhan, Dale Baldwin, AndreaDraco83), otherwise don't derail the thread with discussing how another forum member is behaving.

Agreed that the thread has ended up confusing and a chat about WoW vs Asherons Call was not my intention when I started the thread, better to stick with possible enhancements to AGs.

I got abit carried away and replied to posts it was probably better to pass. This added way more text than necessary and makes the thread harder to follow. I will stick to the PM feature from this point and apologies for not doing so when I started having some concerns.

At this point, it would be nice to regroup/restart the thread and I'd be thankful to people that have spent time on genres like rpg, shooters, strategy, simulation games or any other genre if they wish to add ideas that could possibly enhance AGs or even possible enhancements that would stem from AGs themselves.

[Melanie68]

Thanks.

If you want to discuss WOW and the other non-adventure games specifically, feel free to start a thread in the General forum. That way you can talk about those separately.

[oerhört]

I agree that adventures have stagnated -- but I have not played the Lost Crown yet.

However, Dreamfall, Fahrenheit, Broken Sword 3, Uru, Hotel Dusk and Myst IV all did relatively new things with the format, so I don't know why all the new games insist on following the old norms of LucasArts and Cyan.

(To a westerner, even the Phoenix Wright series felt fresh, although they are highly derivative and mostly derive their structure from 20-year-old japanese adventure games as far as I know.)

I don't know (or rather, don't have the time to start an involved discussion on) how the genre can come alive again or if it is really necessary, but I wanted to comment on one issue that seems to come up time and time again: That other genres are "dumb" or not as intelligent as adventure games. That is rubbish, and just goes to show that the poster holding those claims hasn't understood what goes into creating high-quality games in other genres, or how they should be played.

There is a lot of thought you can put into how you play Street Fighter, or Final Fantasy, or Ninja Gaiden, or Fallout 3, or Halo, or Ridge Racer. Games are not necessarily stupid just because their backstories lack depth.

Edit: Somehow related to this is the fact that the adventure genre's influence can be seen quite clearly all over the place, and especially in RPGs and action games. The genre has also spawned several hybrids, such as the Alone in the Dark genre (survival horror) that to this day still tend to feel like adventures to me. Gregory Horror Show is pretty much a straight-up adventure, but Fatal Frame/Project Zero, Alone in the Dark (1-4) and the Silent Hill series also qualify as very much related to the adventure genre to me.

As such, any discussion about how adventure games should develop is also a discussion of what an adventure game is and should be. But in order to focus a bit, I suggest that we abstain from suggesting incorporating RPG and action game tropes such as shooting and factions. Not because they have no place in a certain product, but because it's more interesting for this particular discussion to have a look at how the well-known distinctly adventure-y features can be done better or expanded in new and unexplored directions.

Edit2: Also, I'd like to point out that arguing on review scores to determine if the genre is dead or not is rather meaningless. It is not commercially dead (people still produce games and make profit), but it's clear to anyone with eyes that it's seen as dead by mainstream gaming coverage, with some notable exceptions (Telltale, Dreamfall, Fahrenheit, Broken Sword etc).

[Beacon]

For me, Adventure Games are dead until developers ditch the point-n-click interface.

At one time it was the epitome of computer game interfaces. Today it is old and stagnant.

[oerhört]

The success of Bejeweled, Peggle and the hidden object genre would seem to disagree with that point. As would the ubiquitousness of point-and-click in operating systems, web pages and so on.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting with other forms of control where it is applicable, but I honestly feel there is nothing wrong with point-and-click in itself. The specific derivation of point-and-click used in most adventure games may be stagnated though. Have anyone played an adventure game that is as expressive in its interactions as MacOS X lately?

[Jannik]

Exactly. Point and click is tried and true. What we need, in my opinion, are more alternatives.

I would love to see more adventure games with "direct 3D control". To me, it doesn't matter if it's done like the typical first-person shooter, or more like in the Tomb Raider games with their third-person "over the shoulder camera". I just like the way these control and camera systems make you feel like you're inside the game world. That also opens up for, in theory at least, a broader range of puzzle types. E.g. physics based puzzles.

Futhermore I would like puzzles to evolve. Use A on B is also tried and true, but It's also fun to sometimes to play the puzzles instead of "just" pressing a button. I'm not thinking of logic puzzles here (although I like those puzzles too) but more in terms of story driven mini games and gameplay like that.

Game series like Zelda, Metroid Prime and Tomb Raider prove that there's a huge market for games with strong adventure elements, outside the traditional adventure game market. So what I think would be great, are more games in the same vein, but with a little less action, and more focus on story and characters.

[aries323]

I don't think adventure gaming are dead at all. I base this on the fact! that many (more) adventure games have been coming the last 1-2 years than the years before (from around 2001-2007)

In the recent years we have gotten games like FBI: Art of Murder, Scorpio Ritual, The Agatha Christie Games. And the French seem to have saved the game genre with Nostradamus,
Da Vinci, and the Sherlock Holmes games. The Germans and other European developers helped to do this, too, of course.

As I see it, some of these games like the Sherlock Holmes have graduallu introduced the full 3D feature in adventure games, and players have adopted to this very easily, I find. In rpgs, the big battle over full 3D raged for a very long time when full
3D first was introduced in rpgs back maybe 8-10 years. Instead, for adventure games, we have gotten a nice and steady evolution sort of easing our way into the world of full 3D in adventure games.

Games are still being made in 2D or 2.5D which is nice, I find

As for the adventure game genre lacking originality and innovation, I don't think this is entirely true; Overclockede tried to do something new with how it told the story, Still Life 2is trying to do something new with how it manages inventory in the game.

I remember playing Shivers 2 a long time ago - (could'nt finish it, though, due to me not knowing how to operate a certain door in the game - however, in the booklet that came with the game, 4 (four!) endings to the game would be possible, depending on what you did during the last half or so of the game, I think? Now, this is something, I personally would like to see (again) in today's adventure games, multiple endings based on what your character has been doing during the game.

Or just some slides (like Fallout 1 had at the end) showing what happened to the character you have talked to interacted with in the course of the game.

And branching dialogues, please. I think Post Mortem or Still Life (the first one?) had this feature? I would like to be able to decide what my character is going to say and if I get a certain response, then this opens a new dialogue option. I think maybe Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy had this feature?

I don't mind adventure games being first person as long as they use a fixed camera. Many of us probably prefer third person point and click games because we get motion sickness when playing in first person perspective...

[oerhört]

In the recent years we have gotten games like
FBI: Art of Murder

Heard about, didn't play.

Scorpio Ritual,

Didn't hear about.

The Agatha Christie Games.

Heard about, as far as I know they're known for being rather rubbish.

Nostradamus,

Heard about, but criticism was muted.

Da Vinci,

Never heard about this game. Are you referring to the Da Vinci Code?

the Sherlock Holmes games.

Heard about and tried out, the ones I tried were utterly mediocre.

If these are your arguments, the genre is indeed dead unless you back up the names with some decent arguments as to why those are better than Broken Sword 3+4, Myst 4-5, Uru, Syberia 1+2, Dreamfall, Fahrenheit, Hotel Dusk, Another Code, and Phoenix Wright, which all came out some years ago.

[Jadefalcon]

No offence though, if your sole or main argument is "heard about", that's not much use as people can of course disagree with reviewers/friends/etc.

The Sherlock Holmes games I agree with to an extent, much preferring the 90's Electronic Arts ones.

As to Da Vinci, I believe there are two or three Da Vinci games, one is the Da Vinci Code, from the film, but there are meant to be others based off the same idea.

The Agatha Christie games aren't rubbish, they're not perfect and each one is, at least in my opinion, progressively better. I haven't tried Death on the Nile as that seems to be a 'spot the hidden object' game rather than an adventure game as such.

EDIT, I don't mean that to sound confrontational, but personally you've no idea how many games, films, TV series etc I've heard as being wonderful that I disliked and vice versa.