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did we take the 2000s decade for granted?

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I can also make the case why I think there was a lot of innovation in 2000s:

Myst 3 - for the first time in series, there’s a “free look” system which gives the player a 360-degree field of view at each node.

Broken Sword 3 - for the better or worse, it was in full 3D compared to the predecessors

In Memoriam - one of the most original game concepts ever, which also sold very well

Return to Mysterious Island - Kheops trademark inventory concept, with plenty of multiple solutions to puzzles

Keepsake - 3rd person game with a typical Myst-clone puzzles, UHS-like hint system throughout the game

Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened - combining Sherlock Holmes with Lovecraft’s stories

Edna and Harvey: The Breakout - ridiculously large amount of items/objects combinations and responses

A Vampyre Story - “remember the inventory item” and “fly to” features

Gobliiins 4 - the series transition to 3D for the first time

Amnesia: The Dark Descent - plenty of never-before-seen horror elements, like the use of light, keeping the level of the “sanity” and running away from the sight of the monsters.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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diego - 12 July 2020 09:57 AM


A Vampyre Story - “remember the inventory item” and “fly to” features

Gobliiins 4 - the series transition to 3D for the first time

Amnesia: The Dark Descent - plenty of never-before-seen horror elements, like the use of light, keeping the level of the “sanity” and running away from the sight of the monsters.

If you ask me, the 360 movement in Myst 3 sounds less exciting when you think there already had been free movement 3D adventures before it. Sure, Myst 3 looked better but there already had been titles like Under a Killing Moon and even the 1st Myst had gotten its own realtime makeover before Myst 3.

Keepsake I actually do like. Only thing I’d add to that game is a quick travel map, as you do have to run around the locations quite a bit. But I don’t really see anything innovative about the game.

Vampyre Story had a solid idea with the idea of remembering the item locations for further use. It’s something I’d love other games utilizing as well, especially if they insist on doing the whole “can’t pick up that unless a specific checkmark has been reached”-route.

May I ask, why you think Goblins 4 is innovative? Other previously 2d titles had done 3D transitions long before that series did. There’s nothing remarkable at that transition by 2009.

     

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Myst III wasn’t the first with 360 degree panning, but it was the first that allowed you to swap back and forth between central-cursor style panning and allowing you to keep the screen still while moving the mouse.

By default, the game is in Free Look Mode. In this mode, moving the mouse or pressing the keyboard arrow keys will look around the world, with the pointer in the center of your view. Right-clicking will change to Cursor Mode. In Cursor Mode, moving the mouse or pressing the keyboard arrow keys will move the pointer on the screen, without rotating your view. This will allow you to access inventory items below the main view window.

     
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tomimt - 12 July 2020 10:37 AM

If you ask me, the 360 movement in Myst 3 sounds less exciting when you think there already had been free movement 3D adventures before it. Sure, Myst 3 looked better but there already had been titles like Under a Killing Moon and even the 1st Myst had gotten its own realtime makeover before Myst 3.

Myst 3 copied the navigation from Journeyman Project 3 and Zork Grand Inquisitor. There was nothing innovative about it.

     
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cyfoyjvx - 12 July 2020 10:50 AM
tomimt - 12 July 2020 10:37 AM

If you ask me, the 360 movement in Myst 3 sounds less exciting when you think there already had been free movement 3D adventures before it. Sure, Myst 3 looked better but there already had been titles like Under a Killing Moon and even the 1st Myst had gotten its own realtime makeover before Myst 3.

Myst 3 copied the navigation from Journeyman Project 3 and Zork Grand Inquisitor. There was nothing innovative about it.

I never said it was innovative in that sense, but the fact that it (successfully) implemented the system within the Myst world. Another example I mentioned (Broken Sword switched to 3D) shows that the producers weren’t milking the popular franchises, and weren’t afraid to take risks.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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Captain Blondebeard - 12 July 2020 08:48 AM

While I’m sure the companies would have loved to create a piece of art, it seemed as if they were fighting for there lives. The adventure game market was all but dead. The MARKET market was dead in the early 2000’s. Everyone was broke

An interesting point of view, but I don’t think that’s what really happened.
For instance, between 1999 and 2009 there were three Indiana Jones action adventure games made by LucasArts, which is more than they did during the golden adventure years.
It can be seen that they just innovated more towards action, because that’s were the money was as action adventure was a hot genre back then.

Captain Blondebeard - 12 July 2020 08:48 AM

Great characters and art but downright stupid puzzles (box pushing in Broken Sword 3).

Vehelon - 12 July 2020 09:02 AM

Even just some innovation would have been nice. Not one of those games has any sort of innovation except for the Amanita games.

Quite the contrary. There was lots of innovation.
Box pushing in BS3. Whipping around in Indiana Jones. Jumping and climbing in Tomb Raider.

Not all innovation is good, and what is good is totally subjective to begin with.

It can be said that for instance Indiana Jones series got so much innovation that in the end it was unrecognisable to those audiences who were waiting for a point-and-click adventure but got action adventure instead.

Had they released one more game with verb icons and Scumm engine, that would have been complete lack of innovation. And here comes the problem: does the adventure audience really want more of the same, or something new and innovative? It’s very hard to offer both at the same time.

One of the very few games that went crazy with innovation and managed to pull it off was The Curse of Monkey Island. It had completely different kind of arts and graphics, completely different kind of interface, and different people running the project. Yet, most people seem to think it was great. Most of the time, changes are not as well accepted, as is the case with Escape from Monkey Island.

     
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GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM

And here comes the problem: does the adventure audience really want more of the same, or something new and innovative? It’s very hard to offer both at the same time.

Great question. Innovative doesn’t equal better, per se. Also, a game doesn’t need to be “innovative” in order to become good. Having said that, of course that innovation is great if done right, but I always point finger at FPS “evolution” (and I’m not talking of that hilarious meme Grin) - take Call of Duty, Battlefield and similar series - throughout the years, decades… all the authors changed was the setting, updated graphics and perhaps some other details, but the core gameplay stayed. Is new FIFA, NBA… innovative for the past 20 years? Don’t fix what ain’t broken. And since you mentioned Curse of Monkey Island, I don’t think there was anything “innovative” about it, you know, in the core, design sense. But it succeeded on every level that “counts” for a good adventure game - story, characters, puzzles, humor… and a tone of charm.

Also, what does being “innovative” mean? Are we speaking strictly game design and game mechanics? Because, innovation can be on many levels - the way game uses sounds and music, unusual choice for a story, or a setting, original screenplay and unorthodox humor… At the end of the day, I think that the game works as a whole, or not. Being “innovative” or not.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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Myst III wasn’t the first with 360 degree panning, but it was the first that allowed you to swap back and forth between central-cursor style panning and allowing you to keep the screen still while moving the mouse.

By default, the game is in Free Look Mode. In this mode, moving the mouse or pressing the keyboard arrow keys will look around the world, with the pointer in the center of your view. Right-clicking will change to Cursor Mode. In Cursor Mode, moving the mouse or pressing the keyboard arrow keys will move the pointer on the screen, without rotating your view. This will allow you to access inventory items below the main view window.

     
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GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM
Captain Blondebeard - 12 July 2020 08:48 AM

While I’m sure the companies would have loved to create a piece of art, it seemed as if they were fighting for there lives. The adventure game market was all but dead. The MARKET market was dead in the early 2000’s. Everyone was broke

An interesting point of view, but I don’t think that’s what really happened.
For instance, between 1999 and 2009 there were three Indiana Jones action adventure games made by LucasArts, which is more than they did during the golden adventure years.
It can be seen that they just innovated more towards action, because that’s were the money was as action adventure was a hot genre back then.

Captain Blondebeard - 12 July 2020 08:48 AM

Great characters and art but downright stupid puzzles (box pushing in Broken Sword 3).

Vehelon - 12 July 2020 09:02 AM

Even just some innovation would have been nice. Not one of those games has any sort of innovation except for the Amanita games.

Quite the contrary. There was lots of innovation.
Box pushing in BS3. Whipping around in Indiana Jones. Jumping and climbing in Tomb Raider.

Not all innovation is good, and what is good is totally subjective to begin with.

It can be said that for instance Indiana Jones series got so much innovation that in the end it was unrecognisable to those audiences who were waiting for a point-and-click adventure but got action adventure instead.

Had they released one more game with verb icons and Scumm engine, that would have been complete lack of innovation. And here comes the problem: does the adventure audience really want more of the same, or something new and innovative? It’s very hard to offer both at the same time.

That is a strange argument. The Indiana Jones games completely changed genres. They went from pure point & click adventure to Tomb Raider action. Same with BS3. Do you think we had not seen box-pushing in the history of gaming? It would be like a jazz band switching to playing classic blues and the fans saying “wow! so much innovation!”.

Innovation is a new method of doing things. Emphasis on “new”. What that means purely within the context of adventure games is not easy to define, but it IS easy to say what innovation is not.

     
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cyfoyjvx - 13 July 2020 12:03 AM
GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM

Quite the contrary. There was lots of innovation.
Box pushing in BS3. Whipping around in Indiana Jones.

That is a strange argument. The Indiana Jones games completely changed genres. They went from pure point & click adventure to Tomb Raider action. Same with BS3. Do you think we had not seen box-pushing in the history of gaming? It would be like a jazz band switching to playing classic blues and the fans saying “wow! so much innovation!”.

Innovation is a new method of doing things. Emphasis on “new”. What that means purely within the context of adventure games is not easy to define, but it IS easy to say what innovation is not.

To quote myself:

GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM

It can be said that for instance Indiana Jones series got so much innovation that in the end it was unrecognisable to those audiences who were waiting for a point-and-click adventure but got action adventure instead.

And your comment pretty much proves my point.

Like it or not, after BS2 and Fate of Atlantis people were thinking, “how can we modernise this”, “how can we develop this”, “how do we innovate from here”, and the results are BS3 and Infernal Machine.

With Tomb Raider we can debate it because it wasn’t a continuation of any existing series, but it still was targeting audiences who liked adventure stories with some puzzles.

The same happened with King’s Quest: Mask of Eternity, and they were trying to do the same with Sam & Max and Full Throttle, but nothing ever came from that.

It wasn’t only the best known adventure series that got that treatment, you can also compare how things developed from Star Trek: The Next Generation - A Final Unity to Star Trek: Generations. More action, less adventure, 3D. It was the sign of the time.

Whether we consider developers innovating the genre towards action, or abandoning the genre and making games of a different genre is a bit academic as it happened anyway. And we should also remember that “adventure” is not only point-and-click, so abandoning pointing and clicking doesn’t automatically mean it’s no longer an adventure, just think about Grim Fandango or whatever.

Some might even make the argument that the adventure genre was going back to its roots by giving the player direct control of the protagonist movement, like in the very first King’s Quest, instead of having the character to find its path based on clicked areas.

     
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GateKeeper - 13 July 2020 02:12 AM
cyfoyjvx - 13 July 2020 12:03 AM
GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM

Quite the contrary. There was lots of innovation.
Box pushing in BS3. Whipping around in Indiana Jones.

That is a strange argument. The Indiana Jones games completely changed genres. They went from pure point & click adventure to Tomb Raider action. Same with BS3. Do you think we had not seen box-pushing in the history of gaming? It would be like a jazz band switching to playing classic blues and the fans saying “wow! so much innovation!”.

Innovation is a new method of doing things. Emphasis on “new”. What that means purely within the context of adventure games is not easy to define, but it IS easy to say what innovation is not.

To quote myself:

GateKeeper - 12 July 2020 12:15 PM

It can be said that for instance Indiana Jones series got so much innovation that in the end it was unrecognisable to those audiences who were waiting for a point-and-click adventure but got action adventure instead.

And your comment pretty much proves my point.

No, it does not. But your reply pretty much proves that you think the words “innovation” and “change” are synonyms.

 

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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Karlok - 13 July 2020 04:39 AM

No, it does not. But your reply pretty much proves that you think the words “innovation” and “change” are synonyms.

I don’t.

innovation noun

in·​no·​va·​tion | \ ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən \
Definition of innovation
1: a new idea, method, or device
2: the introduction of something new

There were changes from Simon the Sorcerer 1 to Simon the Sorcerer 2. Nothing innovative really. Simon the Sorcerer 3D had many changes, which are based on innovations.

Again, not all innovation is good, but when you encounter it, you know it.

     
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GateKeeper - 13 July 2020 05:37 AM

Again, not all innovation is good, but when you encounter it, you know it.

If you think turning an adventure into an action-adventure or an RPG is called innovation, then we have to agree to disagree.

     

See you around, wolf. Nerissa

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tomimt - 12 July 2020 10:37 AM

May I ask, why you think Goblins 4 is innovative? Other previously 2d titles had done 3D transitions long before that series did. There’s nothing remarkable at that transition by 2009.

Can you name another game that plays like Gobliiins 4, and is in 3D? It’s not the fact that the series switched to 3D which is innovative, but that it’s a unique game because of that. Do you think Tomb Raider was not innovative, because we already had 3D games, AND action adventures before it?

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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diego - 13 July 2020 06:09 AM

Can you name another game that plays like Gobliiins 4, and is in 3D? It’s not the fact that the series switched to 3D which is innovative, but that it’s a unique game because of that. Do you think Tomb Raider was not innovative, because we already had 3D games, AND action adventures before it?

There’s no notion in jumping in a new form of presentation after others have already done it. Tomb Raider innovated by presenting a new form of 3rd person action-adventure game with puzzles. It created a formula others started to follow because of how well it made things work.

I don’t really see anything innovative in what Gobliiins 4 is doing. Now, I’ve only seen videos of it, but as far I see, it doesn’t really do anything with the fact that it is now presented in 3D. It seems to be exactly like the games before it, so where is the innovation there? Turning a game into a 3D game is not innovating, it’s just using the tools at hand at the time.

Now, if it utilizes 3D into how you solve puzzles and does it in an entirely new manner, then I will grant it has innovated something. But, as I said, the gameplay I’ve seen of it looks pretty much the same as with the rest of the series.

     

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