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avatar_58 04-14-2006 10:23 AM

Copy Protection
 
I have a question about your form of copy protection. You have opted to use a hardware fingerprinting system with Bone Episode 1 (I'm not sure about 2, maybe you could clarify that) and thats one of the chief reasons I have chosen not to buy this product.

The reason being that, and you've acknowleded this on your forum before, that you must 're-activiate' the product every single time a piece of hardware changes in your system. That is probably very painless for the most part, but what about when your website goes down? Oh well right? Just wait a few days. What if (and a large if) the company went down? What if you moved on and no longer cared about bone?

The point is that Bone is only playable for as long as you deem it fit. Once that link between the game and website is broken the game is useless. Now, I know you've said "there will be a patch" but thats the same speech valve has given me about steam and its not a band-aid.

If online authentication is attached to a single player game then I refuse to buy it. I know you are probably trustworthy and would release a patch, but why not ask the many companies over the years why they went under? Telltale is just like everyone else.....eventually things change and you won't be around forever.....so that worries me about Bone and my continued ability to play it years down the line.

I still play King's Quest all the years later because of its amazing experience, I just want to be able to say the same about your games. :)

kbruner 04-14-2006 11:40 AM

Well,

Running a business requires that we make some decisions that don't always add up the best experience for absolutely everyone. We chose the DRM method we did after evaluating a lot of options, and it's working pretty well for us so far. We're really putting a lot of effort into making sure that the experience is a good as possible, but we simply could not have started Telltale if the business model was different.

I agree with you in principal, but I enjoy things like iTunes and XM too much to shut them out of my life. It's a compromise, but so is buying physical media. If all your game collection get stolen, you'll need to by new ones. ( I know, my house was broken into years ago and all my CD's we're stolen, and it cost me a pretty penny to rebuild )

All I can say is, the times they are a-changin, and TV, music, movies and games are all racing online. But it might not be for absolutely everyone. I still have a phonograph at home, but I've moved all my records to my iPod.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:15 PM

Interesting answer. ;)

See I do have reservations about online distribution, but if forced I could loosen up to it. However its these protection schemes that stop me from bothering. I like how you guys offer a phsyical copy of bone, but does that also require hardware fingerprinting + authentication? I just wish there was some sort of other way.....because protection methods like these end up hurting potential customers rather than stopping piracy. :frown:

Do you guys think that this form of protection is your best bet? No thoughts on maybe trying something different in the future?

fov 04-14-2006 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
Do you guys think that this form of protection is your best bet? No thoughts on maybe trying something different in the future?

Do you have any other protection schemes to suggest?

I can't imagine if Telltale announced they were going to do away with online authentication and use Starforce instead, that fans would be very happy. ;)

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
I can't imagine if Telltale announced they were going to do away with online authentication and use Starforce instead, that fans would be very happy. ;)

Jesus god no......:crazy: Imagine a day when digital distribution is choice, but we have to endure protections that hurt our DVD drives....that would make little sense! :D

My suggestion? I can't give that, because I have my own reservations about protection in general. I've seen many companies exist and flourish in the face of piracy without resorting to any protection at all. Stardock comes to mind here, as do companies like iD software that let go of their protection schemes in patches after a few months of sales.

Personally I feel that if someone wants to pirate a game, you can't stop him. He will do it. Those people don't want their own copy, nor do they care. Those aren't customers. However the ones who do buy games won't pirate if its 'just easy', because lets face it any game on the market right now with the exception of HL2 (steam) is easy. However using protection schemes like starforce or preventing them from full control of the life of their product (bone, hl2) can scare off potential customers.

It seems to me the wrong choice of protection can = loss of sales moreso than piracy itself. Isn't that worth looking into? I know I'm not alone in my thoughts, as I've been agreed with on forums and among friends alike.

vimes 04-14-2006 12:27 PM

Here is a suggestion : buy the game,go through the authentification then find the cracked version so that you can play it in ten years.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vimes
Here is a suggestion : buy the game,go through the authentification then find the cracked version so that you can play it in ten years.

So then isn't that admiting that it is useless? If its been cracked, then whats the point?

NcroManiac 04-14-2006 12:30 PM

How about no protection. Crackers generaly get a kick out of breaking them and that actualy speeds up the illegal distribution.
Steam didn't stop hl2's rabid pirating, programs like Daemon tools can actualy emulate some protection methoods and even I know how to eliminate starforce from my system. Point is, you can't stop piracy, and even if you did, it would not ad sales.
I'm sorry if my rant sounds harsh, but I'm sick and tired of cleaning my regestry of dead protection files or re-instaling certain drivers because certain programs changed them. (I even had to re-install windows the other day because of a program that delated a certain file necisary for the windows validation tool to deam my perfectly legal copy valid).

vimes 04-14-2006 12:33 PM

I wouldn't want to speak for Telltale but I think that the goal is to dissuade people from using the crack version by delaying its apparition as much as possible... it's like posting guards in banks, they won't prevent a very well thought hold-up but they will dissuade and block most of people to attempt to rob the bank.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vimes
I wouldn't want to speak for Telltale but I think that the goal is to dissuade people from using the crack version by delaying its apparition as much as possible... it's like posting guards in banks, they won't prevent a very well thought hold-up but they will dissuade most of people to attempt to rob the bank.

However wouldn't a crack for Bone 1 = a crack for all the other episodes? Unless they make a new model the cracks for the next few episodes are possible in mere hours. Just a thought.

NcroManiac 04-14-2006 12:35 PM

A valid point, but it still hurts the customers.

TheGreyMatter 04-14-2006 12:38 PM

hardware fingerprinting is used both in windows and in almost every (worth protecting) PPC software from the last few years... so its not such a new thing. and as compromise ithink it works great (BTW it worked much less painlessly in TGCR than in OFB)..

artwking4 04-14-2006 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vimes
I wouldn't want to speak for Telltale but I think that the goal is to dissuade people from using the crack version by delaying its apparition as much as possible... it's like posting guards in banks, they won't prevent a very well thought hold-up but they will dissuade and block most of people to attempt to rob the bank.

And those guards are usually the first ones to die in that well-planned hold-up.:7

Poor suckers.:frown:

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreyMatter
hardware fingerprinting is used both in windows and in almost every (worth protecting) PPC software from the last few years... so its not such a new thing. and as compromise ithink it works great (BTW it worked much less painlessly in TGCR than in OFB)..

However I do not wish to use Windows XP in years time. Windows is an operating system/application that will be tossed aside when Vista and future versions come.

Bone, however, is a game that I would like to enjoy beyond its life. I still play the games I played when I was only 5 years old, and I still enjoy them. Why should I expect any less of these games? Hasn't gaming improved and evolved? Why are these methods then destroying the ability to enjoy them?

TheGreyMatter 04-14-2006 12:45 PM

then let's be a bit more constructive and show them a good solution, that works good enough, and promises one cutomer - one game solution.

and please dont give the CD-KEY idea, since we know how easy it is get those on the internet.

Udvarnoky 04-14-2006 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
So then isn't that admiting that it is useless? If its been cracked, then whats the point?

If you're so certain that the games will be cracked anyway, why are you so worried about Telltale shutting down? Surely in that event, if they don't provide the patch you're suspicious about, that people will be putting it on p2p servers like they do everything else?

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
If you're so certain that the games will be cracked anyway, why are you so worried about Telltale shutting down? Surely in that event, if they don't provide the patch you're suspicious about, that people will be putting it on p2p servers like they do everything else?


So then your saying "Who cares, just crack it" right? I could say the same to people who refuse to buy games with starforce attached.....

The point of the matter is that I shouldn't have to. Why must we rely on pirates just to play the games years from now? I don't consider that a solution at all.

I want to live in a world free of DRM, not to live around it.

Dasilva 04-14-2006 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreyMatter
then let's be a bit more constructive and show them a good solution, that works good enough, and promises one cutomer - one game solution.

and please dont give the CD-KEY idea, since we know how easy it is get those on the internet.

CD keys are okay, they protect the software to a certain extend and make it REALLY hassle free for you to use it.

Karmillo 04-14-2006 12:53 PM

But they really only work for games that focuse on multiplayer gaming, no ones going to know if there are 2 people playing an adventure game with the same CD key

NcroManiac 04-14-2006 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
If you're so certain that the games will be cracked anyway, why are you so worried about Telltale shutting down? Surely in that event, if they don't provide the patch you're suspicious about, that people will be putting it on p2p servers like they do everything else?

That's not the point. The point is you should not have to illegally modify your leagaly acquired copy, just to get it to run (or patch it).
It should be ready to go right out of the box, or after you download it, and it should be ready for another play years later, even tough a future operrating system would probably not support it. (thank you dosbox).
And some of us like to be able to play our games on computers that are not conectet to the internet (another reason why I detest steam).

RLacey 04-14-2006 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dasilva
CD keys are okay, they protect the software to a certain extend and make it REALLY hassle free for you to use it.

Until you lose your key.

Seriously, though, there's no system that's going to please everyone bar hackers - otherwise everybody would be using it - so, sadly, it looks like we're all just going to have to adjust...

Lucien21 04-14-2006 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
I want to live in a world free of DRM, not to live around it.

Yeah and I want to live in a world where I don't need to lock my front door or put the alarm on my car when I park.

Companies have the right to protect their property.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucien21
Companies have the right to protect their property.

I don't recall saying they didn't. I'm just saying that certain types of protection make the game less appealing to customers. Funny enough, the harder the scheme the more of a challenge it appears for crackers. I bet they had a field day when Gabe claimed steam was unhackable....

Interesting enough Ubisoft might have dropped Starforce, proving that telling companies we won't stand for it DOES work. Afer all how else are they going to know? I'm simply letting Telltale know that this form of protection may not be everyone's cup of tea and may actually hurt sales.

Udvarnoky 04-14-2006 01:01 PM

Quote:

So then your saying "Who cares, just crack it" right?
Woah woah woah, I did not say that. It's just that it's obvious that Telltale wants to use DRM and if you simply don't believe them when they say a patch will be issued (which is the solution to not needing to do anything illegal to play your game), then what else is there to say?

NcroManiac 04-14-2006 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucien21
Yeah and I want to live in a world where I don't need to lock my front door or put the alarm on my car when I park.

Does a book you buy come with a lock and a serial code to hinder you from copying it?
Does a painting vome with a rentenal scanner so only you or selective few can view it?
Did most VCR's feture fingerprint recognation on them so they could log you if you'd dare and copy a tape or a TV show?
Does a radio have a memory whiper installed so you automaticly forget the new hit song you just listened to, forcing you to buy the CD if you realy whanted to hear it?

Point is, copy protection is going to far, and I actualy fear for the future.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udvarnoky
Woah woah woah, I did not say that. It's just that it's obvious that Telltale wants to use DRM and if you simply don't believe them when they say a patch will be issued (which is the solution to not needing to do anything illegal to play you're game), then what else is there to say?

Well because valve stated a patch removing the need for steam would happen a few weeks into sales of HL2. The funny part, is that the patch is nowhere to be seen. I don't take the word of companies without action.

I use the past for foresight into the future, not the other way around. What people "will do" means nothing without proof.

fov 04-14-2006 01:07 PM

Okay - we've had this conversation a zillion times (and probably will a zillion more). This isn't necessarily the place for the debate. ;)

avatar_58 04-14-2006 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
Okay - we've had this conversation a zillion times (and probably will a zillion more). This isn't necessarily the place for the debate. ;)

Well it was MEANT for telltale ;)

Jake 04-14-2006 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
However wouldn't a crack for Bone 1 = a crack for all the other episodes? Unless they make a new model the cracks for the next few episodes are possible in mere hours. Just a thought.

Which is easier for Joe Gamebuyer? Searching various services of ill-repute for a copy that works and cracking the game, or going to telltalegames.com and purchasing it? If you say the former, your perception of the average game player is very off from reality.

On the other hand, if a third option of "copy it off of your friend's computer and it works" was available, I think that would actually be in the running with "buy it from Telltale's site" in these people's minds, so it's probably for the best that you can't do that, given that Telltale wants to make money by selling its products.

avatar_58 04-14-2006 01:14 PM

What about top selling games out there that merely use cd-checks?

RLacey 04-14-2006 01:16 PM

They can afford to because they're top selling; they turn a profit despite the piracy.

And they come on CD, which downloadable games don't ;).

avatar_58 04-14-2006 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RLacey
They can afford to because they're top selling.

And they come on CD, which downloadable games don't ;).

Games aren't released as top selling, they become that way due to content. A game sells based on whether its good, not because of the company name backing it up.

My point wasn't to use cd-checks, rather that copying said games is so simple....and yet they sell like hotcakes.

Karmillo 04-14-2006 01:18 PM

Also what about people who have multiple computers in the one household, and say the have more than one kid and they both like adventure games.

It would cause allot of fuss for the parents to have the kids fighting over who gets to play the game since they would be used to being able to install it on both computers

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
Games aren't released as top selling, they become that way due to content. A game sells based on whether its good, not because of the company name backing it up.

In a way thats only half true, look at psychonauts

fov 04-14-2006 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmillo
Also what about people who have multiple computers in the one household, and say the have more than one kid and they both like adventure games.

For the record, Telltale's games CAN be installed on more than one computer.

RLacey 04-14-2006 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
A game sells based on whether its good, not because of the company name backing it up.

If only. You know as well as I that Oblivion would have sold thousands of copies even if it had been rubbish. Ditto for Half-Life 2 ;). Now, OK, these are sequels to respected games, but it's as much about trusting the developer as the game actually being any cop. Look at how many people bought Goldeneye: Rogue Agent...

avatar_58 04-14-2006 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmillo
In a way thats only half true, look at psychonauts

Not everyone likes it. Thats not so hard to understand you know. I love it myself, but many people do not. Had psychonauts had "Ubisoft' on the label it would not have sold any more, just look at Beyond Good & Evil.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RLacey
If only. You know as well as I that Oblivion would have sold thousands of copies even if it had been rubbish. Ditto for Half-Life 2 ;). Now, OK, these are sequels to respected games, but it's as much about trusting the developer as the game actually being any cop. Look at how many people bought Goldeneye: Rogue Agent...


Bull. Oblivion is selling by word of mouth....because anyone who plays it or reads a review ends up wanting it for good reason. Bethesda is not a top name, beyond Elder Scrolls they haven't done too much. As for EA, everyone hates them these days so how can you use that arguement ;)

Karmillo 04-14-2006 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fov
For the record, Telltale's games CAN be installed on more than one computer.

Oh really? Well never mind then :P


But couldnt that be manipulated then as Jake said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by As Jake said
On the other hand, if a third option of "copy it off of your friend's computer and it works" was available, I think that would actually be in the running with "buy it from Telltale's site" in these people's minds, so it's probably for the best that you can't do that, given that Telltale wants to make money by selling its products.


RLacey 04-14-2006 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
Not everyone likes it. Thats not so hard to understand you know. I love it myself, but many people do not. Had psychonauts had "Ubisoft' on the label it would not have sold any more, just look at Beyond Good & Evil.

Had Psychonauts had "Ubisoft" on the label it would have been released worldwide at the correct time, and would probably have carried more marketting clout...

Karmillo 04-14-2006 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avatar_58
Not everyone likes it. Thats not so hard to understand you know. I love it myself, but many people do not. Had psychonauts had "Ubisoft' on the label it would not have sold any more, just look at Beyond Good & Evil.

Yes but how do you know if you like a game or not without playing it?

Reviews, and look at Psychonauts reviews...

Dale Baldwin 04-14-2006 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmillo
But couldnt that be manipulated then as Jake said:

There is a limit to the number of times you can do it.


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