[Ninth]

Syberia is about dreams, Black Mirror about nightmare, so it's not about the same things. Black Mirror makes you face something, strongly, abruptly, and beautifully, and Syberia evokes something, subtly and evasively. And beautifully.
To me, both are small jewels, both are good art movies.
And not liking either of them (or any game, for that matter), is not a proof of lack of intelligence any more than not liking Bergman. Come on Sanjuro, here I was in other thread trying to convince people that liking arthouse movies was not the same as being a snob. Please don't proove me wrong with the "intellectual" attacks.

[MDMaster]

There's only one good reply to that:

Oh yeah? So's your mother!

(i.e I won't waste any more time arguing with an old poor man like yourself, go wash your mouth!)

[MDMaster]

Originally Posted by Ninth

Come on Sanjuro, here I was in other thread trying to convince people that liking arthouse movies was not the same as being a snob. Please don't proove me wrong with the "intellectual" attacks.

He's not snob, he just gets his rocks off by showing off that he actually saw some movies longer than two hours.

WOW! Yay! Kudos! Cheers!

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by Ninth

To me, both are small jewels, both are good art movies.
And not liking either of them (or any game, for that matter), is not a proof of lack of intelligence any more than not liking Bergman. Come on Sanjuro, here I was in other thread trying to convince people that liking arthouse movies was not the same as being a snob. Please don't proove me wrong with the "intellectual" attacks.

Ninth, I respect your views ok. Let's get that out of the way. And I'll make something else clear right now...my knowledge of adventure games and games in general is above average, but it pales sensationally to my knowledge of movies. In that respect, I don't feel that I'm a snob when I say (and can prove) that anyone who dislikes Bergman AND claims to understand his films, generally hasn't a clue in the world. Would you listen to a twenty-five year old construction worker telling you how to perform brain surgery, if you were a surgeon? No. It is a sad fact that some people don't know how to begin appreciating certain things, but it's usually because they don't care. And that's fine. If someone said, "Bergman sucks," but they made no attempts to pretend to be movie buffs and were perfectly content to enjoy Alien VS Predator Part IV or Nightmare on Elm Street Part X, then that's ok with me. But people that act like they KNOW what they are talking about when they don't, that's a different story. That is not snobbery any more than it is snobbery when the doctor tells the construction worker, "You do your job, and I'll do mine."

Let's not discuss films anymore. There's a subject I will get passionate about. And I can unfortunately write pages and pages of putting people in their place who think they know anything about it, if they clearly don't. I apologize for ever mentioning the words "art film" on this forum. It wasn't meant to make people feel bad. So, if we all continue to discuss adventure games, I will be much less formidable...and I'll save myself a lot of typing...LOL.

[Sanjuro2]

By the way Ninth, I hope you see this before you reply (if you reply). I realize that I may have sounded like I was directing all of my comments at you, but that's not true. I really do respect your views (aside from the Bergman thing). I'm simply trying to explain to you, in friendship, why I feel that supposed snobbery is not always snobbery. You're French right? You are aware of the French reputation in the minds of stupid Americans? You guys aren't snobs just because you're French... And I'm not a snob just because I know a lot about movies. :-)

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

Ninth, I respect your views ok. Let's get that out of the way. And I'll make something else clear right now...my knowledge of adventure games and games in general is above average, but it pales sensationally to my knowledge of movies. In that respect, I don't feel that I'm a snob when I say (and can prove) that anyone who dislikes Bergman AND claims to understand his films, generally hasn't a clue in the world. Would you listen to a twenty-five year old construction worker telling you how to perform brain surgery, if you were a surgeon? No. It is a sad fact that some people don't know how to begin appreciating certain things, but it's usually because they don't care. And that's fine. If someone said, "Bergman sucks," but they made no attempts to pretend to be movie buffs and were perfectly content to enjoy Alien VS Predator Part IV or Nightmare on Elm Street Part X, then that's ok with me. But people that act like they KNOW what they are talking about when they don't, that's a different story. That is not snobbery any more than it is snobbery when the doctor tells the construction worker, "You do your job, and I'll do mine."

Let's not discuss films anymore. There's a subject I will get passionate about. And I can unfortunately write pages and pages of putting people in their place who think they know anything about it, if they clearly don't. I apologize for ever mentioning the words "art film" on this forum. It wasn't meant to make people feel bad. So, if we all continue to discuss adventure games, I will be much less formidable...and I'll save myself a lot of typing...LOL.

You know, I've seen a lot of movies too, although certainly less than you did, and I love Bergman as well as art films in general (and I get passionate too). Now if ever someone decides that he doesn't like Bergman, well, that his choice. If he says Bergman sucks and mean it, that's annoying, true, but it basically means the same exact thing. And I don't see why anyone would have to like or be interested in something, no matter how objectively good (and I believe there is such a thing as objectively good) it is.
And it doesn't matter how skilled or knowledgable you are, it doesn't give you enough insight to judge the intellect of people based solely on their tastes, especially when the only thing you know about their tastes is that they didn't like Syberia.

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

By the way Ninth, I hope you see this before you reply (if you reply). I realize that I may have sounded like I was directing all of my comments at you, but that's not true. I really do respect your views (aside from the Bergman thing). I'm simply trying to explain to you, in friendship, why I feel that supposed snobbery is not always snobbery. You're French right? You are aware of the French reputation in the minds of stupid Americans? You guys aren't snobs just because you're French... And I'm not a snob just because I know a lot about movies. :-)

Of course you're not snob because you know a lot about movies, or because you're french or whatsoever. And anyway, being snob is not such a bad thing. Proust was a snob, but the greatest writer (I know of) ever.
I just don't think calling people stupid of moking their intellect on subject like whether or not they like Syberia is strange and unproductive.

EDIT: ...which is a shame because you started defending Syberia with passion, which I respect, and which mostly reflected my own opinions about the game.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by Ninth

...and I believe there is such a thing as objectively good.

This was all you needed to say Ninth. I completely agree. You and I think very much alike, I'm just far too outspoken and you seem more reserved. :-) Basically, this was what I meant when I said that one can say Bergman sucks, but not objectively. Perhaps I'm not clear enough in my methods... The objective value of things is precisely what I attempt to defend. A lot of people don't care about films (or whatever art form) enough to judge in any way other than subjectively. As long as they don't pretend to be scholars on the subject, then that's ok.

Ninth, surely you understand why this started? That kid MDMaster stated that no one could deny that Black Mirror was better than Syberia. When one makes a statement like THAT, then yes, it needs to be backed up. Of course, my advantage was that I knew it COULDN'T be backed up. And sure enough, MDMaster revealed that his understanding of the subject matter in Syberia was at a very juvenile level. I wasn't mocking him or badmouthing him simply because he didn't like Syberia. I was simply proving how absurd his statement was by revealing how little he actually understood about the game. One should certainly know what they are talking about before making a statement like: "No one can deny that Black Mirror is BETTER than Syberia."

Someone who says something like that just asking for it...so I delivered on my end. But Ninth, just so you know, I find you to be a very reasonable person. :-)

[100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja]

I would just like to say again that I'm sorry for saying Sanjuro's post was stupid. Even though things looked like it could steam up before that, guess I was the one who started all of this. I would like for all of you guys to quietly back down, in this thread it should all be about Black Mirror and not who is more intelligent. We all had uor share of each other, respect and all, but it would be better to stick to the theme and quit the psychological characterisation (or evaluation). I believe we are here to discuss and to disagree, but with some decency. So, in that name, sorry for casting the first stone.

[Sanjuro2]

100ja, don't worry man. You actually didn't cast the first stone. The first stone was MDMaster's when he said no one can deny that Black Mirror is better than Syberia. That was the first thing. So if you're apologizing for starting all this, there's no need. Because you are already in the clear. :-)

[100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

100ja, don't worry man. You actually didn't cast the first stone. The first stone was MDMaster's when he said no one can deny that Black Mirror is better than Syberia. That was the first thing. So if you're apologizing for starting all this, there's no need. Because you are already in the clear. :-)

No man, what I really want is this to end. It's pointless to argue like this, I mean we ain't arch enemies, and you Sanjuro sure ain't my nemesis who will be bringing The Reaper to my house .
Anyway I don't like to point fingers at anybody or dissing anyone. Flaming is absurd, especially when it basically comes to arguing about who has better taste. It's OK to make a joke or something, but cursing and name-calling is absurd. And the one thing I hate is when someone gives me a psychological evaluation (not happened here, and hope it won't).
BTW LOVE PEACE & HARMONY

[Sanjuro2]

Well, I think it has died down anyhow. :-)

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by 100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja

No man, what I really want is this to end. It's pointless to argue like this, I mean we ain't arch enemies, and you Sanjuro sure ain't my nemesis who will be bringing The Reaper to my house .
Anyway I don't like to point fingers at anybody or dissing anyone. Flaming is absurd, especially when it basically comes to arguing about who has better taste. It's OK to make a joke or something, but cursing and name-calling is absurd. And the one thing I hate is when someone gives me a psychological evaluation (not happened here, and hope it won't).
BTW LOVE PEACE & HARMONY

Although peace and harmony are strange things to find in a Black Mirror thread...
Psychological evaluations are not, though.

[MDMaster]

This has obviously gone too far and OT, so I'd like to apologise to anyone who actually wanted to talk about TBM and couldn't get the chance.

Btw Sanjuro I'd sure like to hear your opinion, in a PM of course, about some very mature themes that you sure could appreciate like Leibniz's theory on ethic (Ethica ordine geometrico demonstrata) or the influence on Middle Age culture of the 4 popes from Anagni (Innocenzo III, Gregorio IX, Alessandro IV, Bonifacio IV). I'm just a kid so I don't understand this, but I'm sure you did since you are OBVIOUSLY someone who reads a lot of books.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

Btw Sanjuro I'd sure like to hear your opinion, in a PM of course, about some very mature themes that you sure could appreciate like Leibniz's theory on ethic (Ethica ordine geometrico demonstrata) or the influence on Middle Age culture of the 4 popes from Anagni (Innocenzo III, Gregorio IX, Alessandro IV, Bonifacio IV). I'm just a kid so I don't understand this, but I'm sure you did since you are OBVIOUSLY someone who reads a lot of books.

Indeed. I've read my fair share of books. Still... I prefer this answer, even though it's not my own.

"I'm no bookworm. Never have been, never will be. But of everything to do with pictures and images I'm omnivorous. All that affects me intensely, closely. Whatever is visible or audible—image and sound—that's what affects me most." - Ingmar Bergman

Please understand, visual mediums have been the subject of this thread the entire time. Adventure games and films are both visual mediums. The influence of four popes on Middle Age culture has nothing to do with ANYTHING on these boards or this thread.

Oh, and by the way, just to let you know for next time you ask people to private message you with information... Leibniz's theory on ethics wasn't Ethica ordine geometrico demonstrata... "Ethics Demonstrated in a Geometrical Manner" (as it translates) was the work of Benedict de Spinoza. And now, let's please get back to the thread subject...

[MDMaster]

Sorry but I didn't say that Leibniz wrote EOGD, but I was referring to that since it's clearly his starting point in his ethics theory, especially cause I've been studying his views on theology as a sort of iurisprudentia (and that also connects to the Anagni Popes, the first steps towards the Codex Iuris Canonici of 1917).

And, clearly, it was all in reference to a simple principle truly easy to follow: 'don't judge a book by it's cover (or a user by it's avatar, if you wish)'. Period.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

And, clearly, it was all in reference to a simple principle truly easy to follow: 'don't judge a book by it's cover (or a user by it's avatar, if you wish)'.

It was a joke in the beginning. Then it was your own words and actions I judged by. It was rather easy...

[Mieze]

Well, maybe we should discuss now whether Leibniz would say that the "Evil" in Black Mirror was a metaphysical, moral or natural evil...

Sorry, sorry! Only kiddin'... I could not resist... my apologies!

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

"I'm no bookworm. Never have been, never will be. But of everything to do with pictures and images I'm omnivorous. All that affects me intensely, closely. Whatever is visible or audible—image and sound—that's what affects me most." - Ingmar Bergman

Talking of pictures and images :

Did anyone notice that there are numerous paintings of famous historical personalities in and around Castle Black Mirror? There is Frederick the Great somewhere (if I am not much mistaken).

And I have seen a portrait of King Ludwig II (yep, the one of Gabriel Knight fame) on the left side of the gallery leading up to Samuel's room. And another one of Ludwig is hanging in Dr. Hermann's house near the entrance to the morgue.

In both cases Samuel says the man in the picture is probably an ancestor of the Gordon's respectively of Dr. Hermann's.

Now I have wondered... was this sloppiness on the part of the designers of the game or was it a subtle kind of irony?

[Sanjuro2]

Wow Mieze! I forgot that he says they're related to the family somehow. I remember the Ludwig II painting, of course. But I didn't know the game said he was part of the family. The Gabriel Knight connection deepens... :-P

[fishcube]

Me and my husband are playing Black Mirror. We havn't gotten past the first day, but I must say its quite boring....

You click on items that tell you nothing important (like, "this is a chair"), and there are very few items to actually pick up and use.

Currently stuck, been everywhere, talked with everyone, done everything.

We are hoping it gets better???