[MDMaster]

Oh well, one cannot deny it that the 'camp' values of Phantasmagoria are EXTREMELY attractive. Although I have to say other games sometimes do their best to be even trashier than that, I mean The Orion Conspiracy anyone? That is one huge bunch of campy laughs. And even though it's regarded as a serious adventure, I would say Gabriel Knight 2 has it's own share of trashy moments too, even if the plot tends to be a little less ridicule than the Phantasmagoria series (especially the second one, the first one is the usual 'Haunted House/Shining' remake).

Oh btw I was contacted by a guy that wants to work on my site, his nickname is 'hailtotheking'... now what should I say to him? 'Gimme some sugar' or 'this here... this is my boomstick!'?

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

The point is that there's no denying that Black Mirror is BETTER than Syberia.

How about: Black Mirror is not better than Syberia?

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by Ninth

How about: Black Mirror is not better than Syberia?

I second that!

[timcclayton]

You're both out of your minds!!!

Syberia = plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, oooh great another mechanical puzzle, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, oooh excellent another annoying mechanical automaton, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by timcclayton

You're both out of your minds!!!

Syberia = plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, oooh great another mechanical puzzle, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, oooh excellent another annoying mechanical automaton, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod, plod.

Ha ha. Well Tim, I can see how some people would see it that way. But for me, it's not just a wonderful game, but it's in my personal Top 10 at #6. And I won't even begin to give my credentials as in..."And I've played THIS many adventure games, so BELIEVE ME, I know!"... No, indeed that would take far too long. :-)

I think in the world of adventure games, Syberia is more like an art film and Black Mirror is more like a Hollywood movie. The majority are going to prefer the latter, and I'm just happy to not be among them.

[timcclayton]

Just my sledgehammer wit - sorry!
To set your mind at rest I did actually enjoy both Syberias (although perhaps strangely I much preferred the first one for the reasons in my previous post)

And I'm obviously much too defensive of Black Mirror although I enjoyed it more than any other adventure since The Longest Journey.

[Sanjuro2]

Cool Tim. Heh. I enjoyed the first one much more as well. :-)

[Ninth]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

I second that!

But I don't think Syberia is better than Black Mirror either.
Really, they are so different that I loved them both equally, and would be unable to say which one I liked better.

[MDMaster]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

I think in the world of adventure games, Syberia is more like an art film and Black Mirror is more like a Hollywood movie. The majority are going to prefer the latter, and I'm just happy to not be among them.

I do not really understand this. Syberia has been done by Microids, obviously one strong software house (although maybe not at the time), Black Mirror has been done by 5/6 people with AGDS engine. So you can't mean 'Hollywood production values'. Maybe you mean plot? Yeah, I guess, Syberia's plot (if one can call it that, since it's only a ten pages diary affair) is evidently reminescent of French movies and Black Mirror of 'serious' horror; but even so I do not think the majority of people is going to prefer Sokal's game over TBM.

Just take a look at gamerankings and see the difference between the reviews of the two games, Syberia has rather high rankings while TMB gets treated almost like one of the worse adventure games to hit the market in years (which is NOT true, we all know that). Also you're not counting the effect of Syberia on girls, these days a rather big portion of gamers, which obviously prefer that over TBM. And even so Syberia has been a much more successful game, so I can't really understand how an european game of that sort could fit in a 'Hollywood movie' POW. I just see it as it is, an amateurish take on a genre so depressed that good graphics, an interesting plot and nice music are enough to make a decent game. TBM wasn't clearly made by well-payed professionals, so that's what one should admire about it.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

I do not really understand this. Syberia has been done by Microids, obviously one strong software house (although maybe not at the time), Black Mirror has been done by 5/6 people with AGDS engine. So you can't mean 'Hollywood production values'. Maybe you mean plot? Yeah, I guess, Syberia's plot (if one can call it that, since it's only a ten pages diary affair) is evidently reminescent of French movies and Black Mirror of 'serious' horror; but even so I do not think the majority of people is going to prefer Sokal's game over TBM.

First of all, you are mistaking Syberia for a plot-based game when it is character-based, like most of the great works in any medium. For instance, look at movies... Let's say a movie has a splendid plot with all kinds of intrigue, mystery, twists, and whatever else...but the characters are generic, boring fools. Then the movie sucks. Characters are the heart and soul of any story. Everything begins and ends with characters. I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, but this is generally true. Now, lets look at a movie with ZERO plot, but fantastic characters...Before Sunrise & Before Sunset, Eric Rohmer films, etc. These movies have people walking around and talking or sitting in coffee shops conversing for nearly the entire running time, and they're excellent regardless. CHARACTERS are where it's at.

To say the plot of Syberia is a "ten pages diary affair" is like saying The Godfather is a "ten dead bodies affair". It's oversimplifying. Beyond the ten diary pages in Syberia are the characters of Hans and Anna, and the bond between them. Beyond the ten dead bodies in The Godfather is the love of a family. There is so much more in great pieces of work where too many people aren't willing to look. Black Mirror is good, don't get me wrong. But one can leave half their brain in the bathtub and still get full enjoyment out of it.

In Syberia, the visuals go a long way toward telling the "story". What I think should be understood is that the main character of the game isn't Kate Walker. It's Hans Voralberg. Every location and nearly every puzzle is a reflection of the journey Hans set out upon, and a mirror image of his mindset at the time. Here are a few excerpts from my review:

"In a way, I find Sokal's games to be similar to the Myst series. The way his puzzles are always so tied into the very fabric of the game's story and characterization, particularly in Syberia, and the way that the locations themselves reveal pieces of a certain character's personality or interests. In the Myst games it's Atrus or his sons; in Syberia it is Hans Voralberg."

"The puzzles feel very natural, they are very much a part of the world, and more specifically, very much a part of Hans Voralberg. As you explore, you learn more and more about Hans and his creations and his dreams. Kate may be the character you play, and she gets plenty of development via cel phone conversations with people back home (her boss, her mother, her boyfriend, and her best friend), but in the end this game is the story of Hans. It is the story of Anna as well. The story of automatons. The story of a dream to see something that may not even exist. It is a story of faith. It is a story of love. One can't help but be swept away by the magic of this creation."

Anyway, I believe it's awful to judge Syberia as a plot-based game instead of a character-based game. The Longest Journey is plot-based. And I'm not afraid to say that I think Syberia is a better game than TLJ.

[100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

I think in the world of adventure games, Syberia is more like an art film and Black Mirror is more like a Hollywood movie. The majority are going to prefer the latter, and I'm just happy to not be among them.

First of all, I'm sorry, but your post (the one I quoted) is stupid. Just had to say that.

The reasons it's stupid:

I have seen to many art films not to know the different kinds of crap people put in that category. And I really didn't "buy" Syberia at all. But, hey, it's my opinion, and I am intitled to have one. As for Black Mirror, hardly a "Hollywood flick" (and I like to reffer to the movies which really were Hollywood production, especially newer like Dracula 2000, 13 ghosts... not counting remakes, cause they are remakes of mostly non-hollywod movies after all). Hollywod production is classy, shiny, corny... Black Mirror looks more like a small budget movie (and it was a small budget game), made for the video distributors or airing on TV.

So, to sum up, I prefer TBM, and I am happy to be with "the majority".

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by 100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja

First of all, I'm sorry, but your post (the one I quoted) is stupid. Just had to say that.

I'm sorry as well then. I'm sorry my post affected you so much that you felt it necessary to say I'm stupid. Yes, calling my post stupid is essentially the same thing. Anyway, I can't help it if my typed words anger you, but I'm sorry all the same.

Originally Posted by 100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja

I have seen to many art films not to know the different kinds of crap people put in that category.

Yet, you give no examples? Perhaps you are referring to crap, perhaps not. I can't say because I have no idea what movies you are talking about.

Originally Posted by 100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja

Hollywod production is classy, shiny, corny...

Ah! You are talking about The Black Mirror? Heh. The Black Mirror may be a small budget game, but it looks at least as good as The Longest Journey...it's a slick, polished looking game.

[MDMaster]

Yeah, I guess that Syberia could be called a character-based game, and not strictly a plot-based one. But even so I don't really think that characters in Syberia are really THAT interesting, maybe if you compare 'em to other adventure games like Toonstruck or Full Throttle (although that's one comparison that should not be made), but from a 'human' point of view, well, I don't believe 'em. Why should Kate follow a madman's dream? The only reason the game gives you is that she's clearly 'bored with her life', but that's not one good reason to leave an husband, work and everything behind you! Or at least if it is, it should be clearly explained instead of all the usual 'When are you coming home, Kate?' 'Oh I should be going now, bye' talks on the phone that only confirm the general 'boredom' of her life (and I would say she's boring too, but I'm getting ahead of my point here).
And I would not say that Anna is a character since we never get to meet her, it would be like saying that William in TMB is a character. He gets killed at the beginning of the game, so except for his diary we don't know anything about him, and the same goes with Anna. Maybe if Kate had met her...
I respect Hans for what it is: the usual Sokal's character of the man with a dream. Frankly I got bored of that idea in Amerzone, I would say it would be a good character if somehow he would learn to make the player appreciate those kind of 'dreamers'. But I don't think he's capable, at least right now, of doing that; instead he plunges poor Kate in the middle of Hans' world and then amen. And I think there are no other characters, so if I actually start judging Syberia by the characters... I guess I have just thrown 30 dollars out of the window (by buying Syberia 2). So characters are DEFINITELY where it's at, yes, but Syberia is sadly lacking deep and profound characters, and instead going with 'videogames profound' characters, and that means that most of the people went berserk in believing that Syberia actually boasts the most believable characters ever, while I do not think that at all. Maybe TLJ did a bit better in that department, I don't know, I still didn't like it as Syberia anyway.

Know what? At the beginning of the first Syberia I was actually thinking that the relationship between Anna and Hans was really interesting, and I thought 'let's see how that develops with Kate going after him'. Well it never did; instead you get stuck with an annoying robot, a weird looking university, the usual war loony and, of course, the ten diary pages. I was disappointed. I am disappointed.

Anyway I ACTUALLY did like the game, both of them, I'm just making my point in saying why TBM should be a bit more appreciated for what it is, maybe it's not that better than Syberia, it should be more appreciated (I know you do), period. And I'm not alone here, most of my friends who played both games agree with me and not with the lousy reviews.

[100ja a.k.a. mr_mitja]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

Yet, you give no examples? Perhaps you are referring to crap, perhaps not. I can't say because I have no idea what movies you are talking about.

This was a statement to art movies in general, like: The fabolous 8 hour sleep of Andy Warhol, or any other of his films. All sorts of movies are thought of as art, although vast of them are nothing but (or look like) a narc-trip or something. Even porn is considered an art-movie form (Irreversible?). You can film almost anything and say its an art film (sort of like art in general) Art movies you can't even see in theatres (or rarley), and Syberia definitely doesn't look like an art movie. Maybe it has the amosphere of european movies (french or english) but it ain't no art movie.

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

Ah! You are talking about The Black Mirror? Heh. The Black Mirror may be a small budget game, but it looks at least as good as The Longest Journey...it's a slick, polished looking game.

No, it doesn't. Look again. It is nice, not as nice as TLJ though. Although I was reffering more to the atmosphere, story and dialogs when I compared it to low-budget movies and not the graphical quality.

And the thing that pissed me of the most was:

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

The majority are going to prefer the latter, and I'm just happy to not be among them.

I understood it like - All of you who think TBM is better than Syberia prefer to whatch corny Hollywood crap (and that's like telling me I'm dumb)!

So, sorry I said stupid. But it really pissed me off. Maybe if I were in a different mood I wouldn't say it, but, hey, we'll never know...

Truce?

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

Yeah, I guess that Syberia could be called a character-based game, and not strictly a plot-based one. But even so I don't really think that characters in Syberia are really THAT interesting, maybe if you compare 'em to other adventure games like Toonstruck or Full Throttle (although that's one comparison that should not be made), but from a 'human' point of view, well, I don't believe 'em. Why should Kate follow a madman's dream? The only reason the game gives you is that she's clearly 'bored with her life', but that's not one good reason to leave an husband, work and everything behind you! Or at least if it is, it should be clearly explained instead of all the usual 'When are you coming home, Kate?' 'Oh I should be going now, bye' talks on the phone that only confirm the general 'boredom' of her life (and I would say she's boring too, but I'm getting ahead of my point here).

First of all, it appears that you missed a few details. Bored with her life? What? Kate has a mother who is completely phony and self-absorbed, a boss who treats her like crap, and a boyfriend and supposed best friend who have a sexual tryst together while she's away! The REAL question is: Why wasn't she following madmen's dreams a long time ago...anything is better than what she had. That's why the journey is one of self discovery and sacrifice for Kate, it's an awakening for her. Basically, it opens her eyes and allows her to realize that she doesn't have to put up with it anymore. I'm not sure how you failed to miss all of this... You say she's bored with life, but that's by far the LEAST of her problems... And by the way, I'm not a big fan of Syberia II. Not nearly so much as part 1, just to let you know.

Originally Posted by MDMaster

And I would not say that Anna is a character since we never get to meet her, it would be like saying that William in TMB is a character. He gets killed at the beginning of the game, so except for his diary we don't know anything about him, and the same goes with Anna.

I never met Isoruku Yamamoto, Erwin Rommel, or George Patton...but by all accounts, WOW...what characters!

Originally Posted by MDMaster

I respect Hans for what it is: the usual Sokal's character of the man with a dream. Frankly I got bored of that idea in Amerzone, I would say it would be a good character if somehow he would learn to make the player appreciate those kind of 'dreamers'. But I don't think he's capable, at least right now, of doing that; instead he plunges poor Kate in the middle of Hans' world and then amen.

Hans is very different from the man in Amerzone. Hans is a tragic character. I believe his character is harmed a bit by the sequel, which upsets me. In Syberia, however, Hans isn't just a dreamer, you simplify everything and I'm beginning to wonder if you were intoxicated while playing. Hans is a child in a man's body. He has a childlike fascination and obssession that is linked to that prehistoric cave and the mammoth doll that he was trying to reach before his accident. The very accident which stopped him from growing. It is a dream to see the mammoths, yes. It's also a deep psychological problem. He's a very tragic character.

Originally Posted by MDMaster

So characters are DEFINITELY where it's at, yes, but Syberia is sadly lacking deep and profound characters.

Heh. In much the same way, it seems, that some people around here are lacking intellect.

[Sanjuro2]

Truce accepted 100ja. By the way, I should have said GOOD art films. Obviously I don't mean Andy Warhol, ok? That guy actually made a movie in 1963 where it was a single 35 minute shot of a man's face while he received oral sex... I'm NOT talking about Warhol here. Nor am I talking about Irreversible, but that wasn't porn. I'm talking about stuff by Bergman, Ozu, Welles, Tarkovsky, Bresson, Ray, etc. I'm not saying that Syberia is in that league, but there are certainly elements of Syberia's storytelling and visual style that are like classic films. I needn't say art film anymore, because a classic film IS art...

Also, I will defend my opinion that The Black Mirror looks as good as The Longest Journey graphically. Not allowing any biases to get in the way as far as which one I prefer stylistically, The Black Mirror actually might be superior. TLJ had nice backgrounds, but HORRENDOUS character models. In fact, those are some of the worst looking characters I've ever seen in a game.

[MDMaster]

Originally Posted by Sanjuro2

Heh. In much the same way, it seems, that some people around here are lacking intellect.

That means 'I can't stand other people's opinions when they're different from mines' I guess. Well, suit yourself, I'm not going to continue this discussion since I'm not here to convince anyone to buy TBM. At least it is now clear who is lacking intellect.

[Sanjuro2]

Originally Posted by MDMaster

That means 'I can't stand other people's opinions when they're different from mines' I guess. Well, suit yourself, I'm not going to continue this discussion since I'm not here to convince anyone to buy TBM. At least it is now clear who is lacking intellect.

Crap. I thought I had found someone who could debate with me for a bit. Then again, intelligently defending the value of TBM against Syberia is a futile effort I suppose, especially since you CLEARLY missed everything in Syberia. Kate's husband? She didn't have one. Bored with life? Uh, WHAT? Ha ha. In the end, I applaud the fact that you ran away. If I was blind, I wouldn't want to get scrappy with someone who could see. Well...unless I was Zatoichi.


EDIT: Ok, that was a little rude. Look, I respect people's opinions. This has come up before on these boards. I put up a review of Silver Earring the same day that Jack Allin did on Adventure Gamers, and I respect his opinion very much. He awarded the game with a 7/10, and I gave it a 9/10. That's valid. Why? Because he explained his reasons.

My issue with you MDMaster is this... Your OPINIONS I respect. But you clearly missed so much of value in Syberia (you state relationships that don't exist, and you clearly seem to have fallen asleep through all of the development) that I don't see how you could have formed a valid opinion. It's like someone saying Hero isn't a good movie because it has subtitles and they left in the first 10 minutes... Hey, if you want to say that Black Mirror has better gameplay and challenge, I'm all for it. I realize that Syberia is a bit on the easy side. But if you're going to assault Syberia's plot and characters, you will need to bring a little more to the table. Or, at the very least, UNDERSTAND what you are bringing to the table.

And on top of all this, don't you think you're being a bit of a hypocrite? You say that I can't stand other people's opinions, but please recall that ALL of this started because you said: "The point is that there's no denying that Black Mirror is BETTER than Syberia."

[MDMaster]

The point here is that in my opinion 'intelligently debating' does not include offending other people just because you feel like it's the perfect way to continue this 'intelligent' debating.
For instance, I do not give a rat's a$$ if Kate had an husband, a boyfriend, it doesn't really change that much; it would be like debating if she's 28 or 30. But that is not the point anyway.
As I said, I do not like debating with people that feel free to offend, I never said you were stupid, although I'm clearly starting to think something is wrong; you did, as far as I recall. That's why you didn't answer my last reply with 'no, you're clearly mistaken, I did not mean that' but with 'crap, I thought I found someone... etc'.
I don't like being insulted for such trivial things like 'Syberia is better than TBM', I have better things to do. Intelligent debating, for example.

HA HA!

[Sanjuro2]

It's all coming together now MDMaster. I'm starting to feel really guilty. Your avatar, your inability to write cohesively, your lack of understanding of basic concepts...you're 16 or 17 years old right? Tops.

In that case, I shouldn't have dragged this on with you. I remember my days as a Bruce Campbell fan, only I was about 14 at the time. You should put your birthdate in your profile so people will understand the situation. Had I known, I wouldn't have taken any offense to your comment about how, "There's no denying that Black Mirror is BETTER than Syberia." I would have taken it as the unformed opinion of a young kid.

And I never called you stupid, I said you lacked intellect. This will hopefully come with time.

Oh yeah, and a word of friendly advice for you! I can't let you go on thinking that the difference between "marriage" and a "relationship" is the same as the difference between being 28 and 30! You will thank me for this later...that kind of naive thinking might cause you to lose every cent to your name! Marriage is legally binding...this means if you get tired of your wife (or she of you), she can LEGALLY take half or more of what is yours. In a regular relationship, you don't have to worry about that...as long as you don't let her live with you. Make sure she keeps her own place. Or like Woody Allen would say, "We don't have to go to it, it's just there...like a free floating life raft so that we know we aren't married." Good luck. :-)