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Old 09-29-2011, 02:42 PM   #1
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Default CHALLENGE to smart puzzlers~New Beginning

Bent disabling the bomb at the end of chapter 5.
Seems to me to be one of the worst designed puzzles I've come across in 30 years of Quest/Adventuring.
Or is it just me?

It is very easy to 'overcome' this puzzle (and for some folk to even pretend that they solved it since there is a simple built in 'SKIP' mechanism – but for those who enjoy puzzling in Adventures this is obviously no 'solution'.
I have so far spent about 3/34 hour on it and have not yet discovered the logic or proper mechanism for solving it – other of course than pure butal hit & miss which is most unsatisfactory and has too many variable parameters for me to crack it - as yet!

The only walkthrough I have found on the Net sidesteps this issue. It gives a few general but obvious instructions which are superfluous and ambiguous anyway. It also gives a picture of the situation at the end of the puzzle but absolutely no word about how to get there.

SO --- Can anybody provide one of two hings ~ either :-
(A) A proper full description of how to proceed (not just the generalities of the walkthrough – which are obvious.
(B) OR 1 or preferably 2 or 3 screenies of the solution as it develops.
***** TIA *****
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:34 PM   #2
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Quote:
The only walkthrough I have found on the Net sidesteps this issue...
Having been finished with this game a while ago (and having become less and less impressed with it as I went along, IIRC), I cannot remember what you are speaking of specifically.

But, so, and thus, I'm not worried about spoiling myself or looking at a walkthrough now... so if you'll give me a link to the walkthrough you are referring to I can try and get reacquainted enough to see what I can say about the bomb disarming you are talking about.
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Old 09-29-2011, 08:23 PM   #3
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I, for one, skipped that puzzle for my own sanity. The skippable puzzles are best thing after hotspot highliter that ever happened to adventure games.
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Old 09-30-2011, 12:27 AM   #4
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Thanks for your speedy replies.
The only full W/T I could find on the net is at http://www.gameboomers.com/wtcheats/...wBeginning.htm
The puzzle is described & a screencap included immediately before the end of chapter 5.
I have now spent well over an hour and only succeeded in coming across anomalies and logical contradictions butt no solution !!!!
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:19 AM   #5
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Sorry to reiterate and probably bore, but this puzzle has got me infuriated.
The W/T says as follows – and this would seem reasonable, sensible and logical :-
Quote:
So row that should be zero should be all yellow. The row other than zero should have the amount of reds matching the numbers that are etched.
But it's driving me up the wall !!!!
There are rows &/or columns which are "0" and yet have 1 or more red clips (or whatever they are). Similarly, there are rows &/or columns which are, just for example designated as say 3 but only have 2 or even only 1 red clip. There often seems to be no correlation between the number of red clips (i.e. 1's) or yellows with the appropriate numbers – as would be imagined.
There are also several other anomalies & contradictions regarding the placing of red & yellow clips.

I am wondering if I am crazy or the game developers ???
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:22 PM   #6
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Okay I remember it now from the screencap in that walkthrough.

Let me see if I can remember how the rationale went (hopefully without having to re-install; because even that would require that I saved my saves which I'm pretty sure I did not {damned sure, actually})... I think it was logical; at least I don't recall it not being... I did create thread about the game somewheres around here and probably would have been like you (ranting about a bad puzzle!!!! ) so I'll take a llok there too...

I'll be back.
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:33 PM   #7
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Alright...

Tell me if I'm wrong but this describes the situation to me:

The number (simple accumulative) of each row or column has to match what is etched above (columns) or to the right (rows).

So a column that has a 3 etched above it would need 3 points (of the 5 in each row or column -- you see, the grid being 5x5).

There are "natural" (without a clip) red (worth 1) or yellow (worth 0) colored points.

Otherwise you can use the clips to "change" the colors to help the points add up correctly.

...

Is this not how it works?

As I say it's been a bit since I finished the game.
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Old 09-30-2011, 02:45 PM   #8
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Let me explain further just in case. I'll use/refer-to the screencap in the walkthrough:

As you see the only "problems" are the 2nd column and the 1st row...

The 2nd column needs to be (needs to add up to) 2. But only 1 of the 5 points is red as the screecap stands.

The 1st row needs to be (needs to add up to) 3. But only 2 of the 5 points is red as the screecap stands.

By placing that red clip where indicated, you change the color of the 1st point in column 2 and the 2nd point in row 1 (they are the same point, right?)...

The other point affected by the clip is unchanged because it is already red as it needs to be. So it doesn't "mess" anything else up.

I believe that's even clearer? Hopefully?
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Old 10-01-2011, 11:30 AM   #9
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Hi Matt,
First & foremost – sincere thanks for your help and your time & effort involved. I seem to remember your help previously but can't find that older thread to verify !
In think we are a bit at cross purposes. I agree that once we arrive virtually at the very end of the puzzle at the screencap in the W/T it is a walk over. But what STILL holds me up and infuriates me is how to go from the start of the puzzle to that point.

Before I forget – do you happen to know if it is a 'fixed' puzzle or a randomly generated one for each different player ? I guess the former, but I'm not sure.

I have TWO serious criticisms of the logical & technical sides of the puzzle.

The first one I can describe fairly quickly – but in rather generalized form – as follows:-
***** The whole thing seems to be a complete total randomly-illogical mess. Clicking yellow &/or red items (or even just clicking alone) on horizontal and vertical links produces totally unpredictable illogical results and reduces the puzzle. to a VERY lengthy trial & error process – even if that is possible considering the multitude of permutations & combinations!!! This alone is a pain in the butt!"

The other IMO more horrendous criticism is a bit more difficult to describe concisely, so I shall leave it for a second stand alone post IMMEDIATELY after this one – as soon as I can compose it!
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Old 10-01-2011, 12:37 PM   #10
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I have 2 or 3 screencaps of the process of transforming from the original situation to the final required situation – but I have not posted graphics here previously and don't know the procedure, so I'll try to be 100% clear with words.
I reached 5 and at one try 6 correct #s out of the 10 necessary – but have not managed to proceed further.

Assuming that the game's numbers are NOT randomly generated I agree that the problem is as follows – to transform the original 10 #s in black to the ones in red as follows :-
Columns from left to right 4 0 2 2 3 3 4 2 3 0
Rows from top to bottom 3 3 4 3 3 1 4 0 2 0
As you change reds to yellows and vice versa, the cumulative intermediate #'s both yellow and red generally BUT NOT ALWAYS automatically change in accordance to the new cumulative sum of res (i.e. "1"s).
Or so I thought! Button !!! I have screenshots showing the sort of things I get all the time as follows (whether columns or rows is immaterial :-
*** 3 reds + 2 yellows ----->> 3 ……OK
Change 1 red to yellow still ---->> 3 ……???
**** 2 reds + 3 yellows ----->> 4 ……???
***** One complete row of yellows---- >> 1 ……???

To me, this sort of thing seems crazy and VERY BAD !!
Does it to you? Maybe it's sup[posed to be like that and I'm obtuse ???
P.S. The W/T gives no mention whatsoever of any of these things or more importantly how to proceed from the beginning orientation to (almost) the very end !!
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Old 10-01-2011, 03:51 PM   #11
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Hi Matt (or anyone else)
I wonder if you would agree to check my above vents by trying the puzzle yourself ?
If so, it will take AGES to reach it – unless you happen to have retained a close savegame.
In that case I can send you a savegame IMMEDIATELY before the puzzle.
However I'll need your email address. If you don’t like posting it here I can send you my email address!
Cheers ---- Len
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Before I forget – do you happen to know if it is a 'fixed' puzzle or a randomly generated one for each different player ? I guess the former, but I'm not sure.
Just a quick look in... didn't expect 3 posts worth to read (I'm kind of tired at the mo', but will come back and see if anyone responded and try and respond more myself), but as for now, as for the quote I quoted by quoting you in quote-brackets above, and I quote...

Is your puzzle different numbers-wise? or "natural" color-wise? from the 10 etched numbers in the walkthrough screenshot and/or the 25 "natural" colors in the grid of same screenshot?

I don't imagine the puzzle could be randomly generated; it would definitely need some pretty smart code to make sure it was a solvable pattern and I doubt they would spend the time when, as you "say" or demonstrate, it would hardly even be noticed.

As I say, I'm tired right now... and, so, I am not giving your posts a true read-through, and so and thus and so I don't quite get your frustration, but will come back later and give your explanation a more thorough read-through.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:58 AM   #13
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Wait... let me ask one more thing...

You understand that each clip affects 2 points?

...

This can have an effect on up to 4 totals:

Maximally:

If you place a red clip on 2 adjacent yellow "naturals" it will add 2 to whatever row or column the clip is in line with and add one to each of the 2 columns or rows that the clip is crossing.

Minimally:

If you place a red clip on 2 adjacent red "naturals" it will do nothing.

?

Any better?
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:02 AM   #14
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If you don't object, I'd like to email you (personally) some screencaps --- I don't expect that you're on skype as I am are you?
If you don't like splashing your email address around on an open forum, please email me at [email protected] but make sure your "subnject" is Hi-LG or it will get trashed together with the tons of spam I get daily TIA
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:26 PM   #15
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I am afraid that we are still talking at cross purposes to some degree
Since I don't know how to post a .jpg on AG forums I'll do the next best thing and describe in words what worries upsets me.
After about a half dozen or so of inserting yellow and red clips I get the following – do you think this is "feasible" , and if not do you think that I'm justified in ventin g ???
]******** (Cumulative) # …..... # of reds
Row 1 from top ... 1 ………...........…. 3
Row 2 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 3
Row 3 from top... 1 ………............…. 0
Row 4 from top... 1 ………............…. 0
Row 5 from top... 1 ………............…. 0

Column 1 " left... 0 ………............…. 0
Column 2 " left... 2 ………............…. 2
Column 3 " left... 1 ………............…. 2
Column 4 " left... 3 ………............…. 2
Column 5 " left... 1 ………............…. 1

i.e. 5 rows or columns make sense to me – the other 5 do not !!!

Last edited by Len Green; 10-02-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:07 PM   #16
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Oh, you are definitely justified in venting if the game is not calculating the numbers. That's unquestionable; a bug of bugs; enough to piss me off too, even if I didn't experience it: just on your behalf!

To post your screenshots all you need to do is (possibly the same as you did for your avatar):
  • Go to one of many suitable picture hosting sites ( imageshack; photobucket; etc.)
  • Upload your images there.
  • Use the "insert image" icon up there on the toolbar available to you (along with bold, italics...) to place the image in the message here. It'll ask you for the URL of the image and you should get that (or, rather, "those", as you will be uploading more than one image I believe) from the hosting site once you have uploaded them there.
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBird View Post
I, for one, skipped that puzzle for my own sanity. The skippable puzzles are best thing after hotspot highliter that ever happened to adventure games.
If by "best" you mean "worst", then yes.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:28 PM   #18
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Although I can see why developers have made the "skippable puzzles", I never like using them...it feels too much like cheating. I don't have any quams about looking up hints/walkthroughs, but for some reason, I just can't skip a puzzle and not know how to solve it.

More on topic: I'm sorry you're having trouble, Len, hopefully you can figure it out.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:14 PM   #19
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I being quite opinionated...

Find that walk-throughs, high-lighters, and skippable puzzles... are shortcuts.

Shortcuts to the demise of good adventure games. If you create a game that has obtuse puzzles that need to be skippable; or pixels-hunts that require high-lighting; or "players" being walked-through...

You have created a poor product. Back to the drawing board, or off to HOGland, please.
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:35 AM   #20
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Yes ! I also absolutely HATE the idea of skipping a puzzle. After all, puzzles are one of the main reasons that most of us love Adventure games over other genres!
During VERY many years of playing I honestly don't remember if & when I ever skipped a puzzle before no matter how tough (but 'fair' !)

Here's another one {Below} !
I spent about 3 hours and over a dozen tries but in the end I had no alternative but to skip in order to continue the game.
That's not 'right' is it ??

I wonder if ANYBODY managed to solve the puzzle PROPERLY – nobody has yet said so.
If however somebody HAS done so, please tell me the steps you used – or at least your strategy in solving it. TIA.

******** (Cumulative) # …..... # of reds
Row 1 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 5
Row 2 from top ... 3 ………...........…. 3
Row 3 from top... 2 ………............…. 4
Row 4 from top... 2 ………............…. 0
Row 5 from top... 0 ………............…. 0

Column 1 " left... 2 ………............…. 3
Column 2 " left... 2 ………............…. 3
Column 3 " left... 3 ………............…. 3
Column 4 " left... 2 ………............…. 2
Column 5 " left... 1 ………............…. 1
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